Taken to court for motoring offence, but wrong signal - what to do???

mr1974

Being taken to court, but wrong sign on the road

Back in April I was stopped and remanded to court by two police officers for having turned left at a traffic light where this was prohibited.

I had the strange feeling that I had seen a sign allowing me to turn left, but I trusted the policemen at the time, and took my fault, only to discover last week that, although there is a sign on a pole indicating no left turn, there is one painted on the road that indicates turning left is allowed?!?
Can I take this as an extenuating circumstance at the court in Novemeber? How do I document it? I hope they don’t fix it before I can take a photograph!! (although it’s been like that for months, maybe years)...


Thanks
mr.

suffolkb

I did this once in London.One sign pointed left to Liverpool St,so I went left.Another sign nearby showed that I should have gone straight on,left,left and right.A bike cop stopped me and gave me a right rollicking - At my age I should be setting an example on my bike etc. He didn`t waste the courts time and let me off with the warning.While he was swearing at me,at least 4 others did the same turn.

Quinny_2

I had a similar experience some years ago,with a non existent HGV restriction sign.

Plod tried to do me for going through a weight limit,when the signs that enforced it,didn't exist.

I wrote to the Chief Constable,with all the details,and basically explained that I had photographic evidence that the signs didn't exist,and asked him if he wanted to take his chance in court,with the waste of time that it would have incurred,and lo and behold,I got a letter back saying that no further action would be taken.

Ken.

mr1974

albertross wrote:

Even if the road marking wasn't there, stuff like this is a waste of police/court/your time imo. Everyone makes mistakes on the road from time to time, partly due to the stupid amount of road furniture that litters our streets. Reckless drivers should be prosecuted, not people who miss a street sign. I'm surprised it couldn't be dealt with, with a fixed penalty notice, (were you apparently going the wrong way down a one way street?)

A very innocenet LEFT turn, I am no reckless driver (I use the car once a week)

albertross wrote:

If the road markings do conflict, (not on different parts of the road (the last sign would override the previous one), or cycles/taxis only etc..), I'd take a photo of the road markings and the relative position to the sign asap, and inform the police if there is time before the court appearance. Maybe they can drop it before it gets to court?


If not, defend it in court, any decent magistrate should let you off.

I know of a similar misleading filter without any restrictions, then as you turn into the road, it says taxis/cycles only, but at that point it's too late).

The point here is that I am not sure the signs where like this whn the thing occurred! They are as described in September, and now, but I am told they may
have been different at the time the fact happened (January!). I didn't immediately check after the fine, and have only been through that same spot again after 7 months.
Is it possible for me to consult some public recording of changes to the traffic signs?
Or is it up to them to demonstrate that it wasn't like this in January?

I have the pictures now...

Any suggestions? Shall I get a solicitor? Perhaps not worththe hassle and plead guilty anyway?

Also they are summoning for another offence: not possessing a valid licence. Of course I had a licence at the time I was stopped, but it didn't show up in their systems. Also I have already brought it to the police station within a week from the facts!

Thanks
Mr

mr1974

albertross wrote:

Personally, I'd go to court with driving license and photo's in hand, and fight it.

Even if the signs were different at the time, the police are unlikely to bring any evidence with them to prove it (this gives you the upper hand), and if you have current photo's showing misleading signs, then I suspect the magistrate will throw it out of court (but could be wrong). If they ask you to plead, then say that you did go down the road, but that you are not convinced it was incorrect, or that there were conflicting and misleading signs.

Let us know how you get on.

Are you sure they are not really taking you to court over the license issue, because making a wrong turning shouldn't be a court matter, maybe they have just screwed up the paperwork .. it was a long time ago..

If you produced it within a week, it shouldn't be on the summons (assuming that it was the correct license for the vehicle involved).

This thread may be relevant..

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=301380

At the time, the officer wanted me to go to court for the wrong left turn only. He had already mentioned that before coming up with the fact that my license "could not be located on their systems"... Bah! I am sure I have a perfectly valid licence for the car I was driving. I have been stopped other times and everything was fine.

I am a foreigner and I suspect that may have played a part in the decision. They even checked the pressure of my tyres (which was within the legal limits), but came up with things like "you have to check it more regularly".
(They also asked me I think illegal questions like what was my job and how long I had been in England)
(This is unfortunate as it makes a bad name for the well behaved policemen I've met in the past)

I'll take up your suggestion and fight. I'll have to take a day off, but can use the rest of it after the court to celebrate the victory ;-)

Any use in hiring a solicitor? Would it significantly raise my chances of winning, and at what cost? (I haven't got the slightest idea)

thanks for the input
mr

fbs_4800

mr1974 wrote:

I am sure I have a perfectly valid licence for the car I was driving. I have been stopped other times and everything was fine.

---

I am a foreigner and I suspect that may have played a part in the decision.

(They also asked me I think illegal questions like what was my job and how long I had been in England)

---

Any use in hiring a solicitor? Would it significantly raise my chances of winning, and at what cost? (I haven't got the slightest idea)

With regards to you being sure you have a license that covers you - do you or not? Surely you just need to dig out the paperwork or the license and read it? If you ARE covered then take it with you to Court - they'll check it and that'll be the end of the matter.

You say that you are a foreigner but you don't say from which country. I ask because EU countries have licenses that are valid in this country - but if you are from a non-EU country then you can only be in England for a year (I think without checking) before you need to apply for a British Driving license.

Therefore, that doesn't make their questions illegal as they're trying to establish the validity of your passport.

Regarding questions about your job, without having people shout at me, they could have been considering whether you were in this country legally or not? I doubt they know you personally, and they can't establish it without asking questions - but obviously they were satisfied as you continued on your way.

The final thing is the conflicting roadsigns. TAKE THE PHOTS as soon as you can as that's your only evidence. I can't believe you didn't get back down there the same day. Take those photos with you to Court. Ask for the DUTY Solicitor (s/he's free) and if the road signs are conflicting - it may not even get into the Courtroom. The Defence would have a quiet word with the CPS and they'd send you on your way.

Nothing to worry about as long as you have the proof.

InnocentMan_2

You may want to reconsider pleading not guilty, becuase it is very unlikely you will be acquitted. Magistrates Courts are Police courts, and Magistrates are in the pockets of the police. Remember that the Magistrates Courts/Police/CPS all have the same paymasters and basically collude together against the motorist in order to extract cash from them.

If you plead not guilty and are found guilty your fine/endoresement/costs will be substantially higher than if you plead guilty.

I am afraid that anyone (especially a motorist) putting their faith in the fairness and impartiality of a Magistrates Court is severley misguided.

philhuff

InnocentMan wrote:

Remember that the Magistrates Courts/Police/CPS all have the same paymasters and basically collude together against the motorist in order to extract cash from them.

Magistrates aren't paid, undermining your rant somewhat.

mr1974

fbs_4800 wrote:

With regards to you being sure you have a license that covers you - do you or not? Surely you just need to dig out the paperwork or the license and read it? If you ARE covered then take it with you to Court - they'll check it and that'll be the end of the matter.

I have stated quite clearly that I am sure my licence is perfectly valid. As I said I have been stopped other times and there were no problems.

fbs_4800 wrote:

You say that you are a foreigner but you don't say from which country. I ask because EU countries have licenses that are valid in this country - but if you are from a non-EU country then you can only be in England for a year (I think without checking) before you need to apply for a British Driving license.

I am from a EU country.
Surely this has nothing to deal with telling me that I should check my tyres pressure more regularly (even though the pressure was perfectly within the legal limits)

fbs_4800 wrote:

Therefore, that doesn't make their questions illegal as they're trying to establish the validity of your passport.

But I am from a EU country.

fbs_4800 wrote:

Regarding questions about your job, without having people shout at me, they could have been considering whether you were in this country legally or not? I doubt they know you personally, and they can't establish it without asking questions - but obviously they were satisfied as you continued on your way.

I don´t think they are authorized to ask anything. I am told they can only ask for my name and address, but I not from a solicitor, so I may be wrong.

It is hard for me to convey the way in which I have been treated. but, as I said, I have been stopped many times, and this is the only one I felt like policemen were abusing their positions and being extremely unpleasant, for no reason.

fbs_4800 wrote:

The final thing is the conflicting roadsigns. TAKE THE PHOTS as soon as you can as that's your only evidence. I can't believe you didn't get back down there the same day. Take those photos with you to Court. Ask for the DUTY Solicitor (s/he's free) and if the road signs are conflicting - it may not even get into the Courtroom. The Defence would have a quiet word with the CPS and they'd send you on your way.

Nothing to worry about as long as you have the proof.

(btw in the meantime I have the photos and I have already pleaded not guilty and they will have to set a new date for the court)

Thanks for the suggestions!

mr

mr1974

InnocentMan wrote:

You may want to reconsider pleading not guilty, becuase it is very unlikely you will be acquitted. Magistrates Courts are Police courts, and Magistrates are in the pockets of the police. Remember that the Magistrates Courts/Police/CPS all have the same paymasters and basically collude together against the motorist in order to extract cash from them.

If you plead not guilty and are found guilty your fine/endoresement/costs will be substantially higher than if you plead guilty.

I am afraid that anyone (especially a motorist) putting their faith in the fairness and impartiality of a Magistrates Court is severley misguided.

I´ve already pleaded not guilty... It´s going to be an experience anyway.

Out of curiosity, how much do you think I should expect to pay for this wrong left turn in the worst case scenario?

mr

Bokken_2

If you have been driving in the UK on a EU countries driving licence you can only do so for 12mths after that you must take a UK driving test or return to your home country remaining there for a short period and then return to the UK and continue to drive on your licence for another 12 months with out taking a UK driving test.
It seems from what you have said you may be incontrvention of your driving licence(rules of your licence) and so effectively you don't have a driving licence and so have been reported to court for the matter to be sorted out along with any other motoring offences ie. no left turn.
If you believe that the signs were incorrect and you can produce some pictures to support this then the magistrates or the CPS will probably discontinue this part as you have brought a element of doubt in to the court.
There will still be the matter of the no driving licence and no Insurance.
Fines vary but £300 for each offence would be my estimate.