Getting me teeth fixed.

theheathen

jugglebug wrote: »

quoting average earnings is always fun
IIRC (and frankly I can't be bothered to go look it up)
The average earnings will include such folk as my old boss who held the NHS contract for 4 dental practices in his name out of which he had to pay 10 dentists, all of which are invisible to the figures
It would also have included the likes of James Hull who owned (and is still on the board I believe) of a huge chain of dental practices. Again with a huge number of associates who as far as the NHS is concerned hold no contract at all. (termed performers, rather than the contract holders who are providers)

These setups are not the norm, and as such don't skew the figures significantly. It's like banking, for all the headlines about mega bonuses in the city, the average worker in the banking industry makes £35k a year. Likewise despite your blather about those individuals with multiple practices to their name, the *average* dentist make circa £100k a year. As with any average, there will be those below that figure, and those very much above it, but as a reflection of what most practitioners earn it is perfectly instructive.

jugglebug

theheathen wrote: »

These setups are not the norm, and as such don't skew the figures significantly. It's like banking, for all the headlines about mega bonuses in the city, the average worker in the banking industry makes £35k a year. Likewise despite your blather about those individuals with multiple practices to their name, the *average* dentist make circa £100k a year. As with any average, there will be those below that figure, and those very much above it, but as a reflection of what most practitioners earn it is perfectly instructive.

These setups are very much becoming the norm.
The PCT's find it much easier to negotiate with group practices, with the corporates like Oasis, Rodericks and IDH covering the country. the old style single handed practitioner is becoming a rare beast indeed.
Anyhow you clearly know better than me. I only do the job. Very much below your average figure

brook2jack

70% of self employed dentists are associates ie they do not own the practice or in the NHS they mostly do not have a contract in their own right.

The widely accepted ( by the inland revenue,NHS , accountants etc) ratio for associates of earnings to expenses is 36%. ie out of every £1 you spend at the surgery 36p before tax and national insurance ends up in the dentists pocket (24p roughly).

Self employed principals have a higher ratio but then then also have a higher financial risk and run a small business employing many people directly and indirectly.

On top of this you have employed dentists who work in NHS clinics ,Independant clinics,hospitals, industry, the armed services etc who are paid a wage at well below the £100,000 mark.

The media loves to quote various figures for average salaries when they are talking gross income, or principals income .

dentists are ordinary people... we aren't bred evil or have dishonesty taught to us in dental school.Some of us earn very good wages,some ok wages. There are probably dentists living close to you. You won't know who they are because they won't be driving a top of the range car, they'll live in a modest house, they'll live a modest lifestyle within their means like millions of others and there are an awful lot more of them than the dentists who do earn megabucks .You'd be surprised how many of them are on this forum. On the other hand there will be dentists on here who do earn a very good living..... but they do earn it, they run small businesses , work very long hours and employ many people.

theheathen

jugglebug wrote: »

These setups are very much becoming the norm.
The PCT's find it much easier to negotiate with group practices, with the corporates like Oasis, Rodericks and IDH covering the country. the old style single handed practitioner is becoming a rare beast indeed.
Anyhow you clearly know better than me. I only do the job. Very much below your average figure

I do find this coy and evasive attitude of dentists regarding their earnings amusing. There's a thread about dental implants at £2500 a piece (implant, abutment and crown) and the guy has his dentist saying he only makes about £20 profit on the procedure. Utter nonsense of course, but it's symptomatic of a profession that is forever crying hardship and poverty. Is the module covering this modus operandi compulsory at dental school, or can one opt to skip it?

brook2jack

jugglebug wrote: »

Anyhow you clearly know better than me. I only do the job. Very much below your average figure

We cannot work out at our practice how they get these figures, even mostly treating private patients none of us even remotely approach this " average". Glad we are not the only ones.

On the NHS at £11 a UDA for an associate you would have to work all day,night 365 days a year to get this... utterly impossible.

I run our local oncall servive so have dropped off phone to other folks houses. Either they are incredibly good at hiding their wealth or they also earn well below "average".

theheathen

brook2jack wrote: »

70% of self employed dentists are associates ie they do not own the practice or in the NHS they mostly do not have a contract in their own right.

The widely accepted ( by the inland revenue,NHS , accountants etc) ratio for associates of earnings to expenses is 36%. ie out of every £1 you spend at the surgery 36p before tax and national insurance ends up in the dentists pocket (24p roughly).

Self employed principals have a higher ratio but then then also have a higher financial risk and run a small business employing many people directly and indirectly.

On top of this you have employed dentists who work in NHS clinics ,Independant clinics,hospitals, industry, the armed services etc who are paid a wage at well below the £100,000 mark.

The media loves to quote various figures for average salaries when they are talking gross income, or principals income .

dentists are ordinary people... we aren't bred evil or have dishonesty taught to us in dental school.Some of us earn very good wages,some ok wages. There are probably dentists living close to you. You won't know who they are because they won't be driving a top of the range car, they'll live in a modest house, they'll live a modest lifestyle within their means like millions of others and there are an awful lot more of them than the dentists who do earn megabucks .You'd be surprised how many of them are on this forum. On the other hand there will be dentists on here who do earn a very good living..... but they do earn it, they run small businesses , work very long hours and employ many people.

Somewhere a particularly diminutive violin is playing, and take comfort my child, for it plays for thee. If my figures and those of your own [STRIKE]union[/STRIKE] association are so far of the mark, perhaps you can opine as to a figure closer to the mark.

theheathen

brook2jack wrote: »

We cannot work out at our practice how they get these figures, even mostly treating private patients none of us even remotely approach this " average". Glad we are not the only ones.

On the NHS at £11 a UDA for an associate you would have to work all day,night 365 days a year to get this... utterly impossible.

I run our local oncall servive so have dropped off phone to other folks houses. Either they are incredibly good at hiding their wealth or they also earn well below "average".

What's with the banal attempt at misdirection? Making a killing off of the NHS system as it exists now is indeed difficult, but then NHS dentistry has all but ceased to exist. All it does now is provide a patient population that can be mined for those patients that can be upsold to becoming private patients and paying the attendant very high fees. As I commented earlier the old piecework system NHS dentists used to work under was changed in large part due to massive systematic fraud on behalf of the dental profession. The NHS contract that exists now is indeed awful, but as a profession you brought it on yourselves. It seems that the state has largely washed its hands of the provision of dental services due to its inability to constrain costs.

Pitlanepiglet

LOL...I'm not a dentist, just a bored Saturday night web surfer (who incidentally has a fantastic dentist who has virtually solved my migraines and neck problems overnight when chiro's, physios and GP's have failed).

I love the fact that you appear to have registered (or re-registered under a new name presumably?) just so you can start a slanging match with dentists....:rotfl:

brook2jack

theheathen wrote: »

I do find this coy and evasive attitude of dentists regarding their earnings amusing. Is the module covering this modus operandi compulsory at dental school, or can one opt to skip it?

Before I became a dentist and was a nice human being I was taught you could discuss anything religon, politics etc but you should never ask outright what anyone earns!

Interestingly there is now legislation being debated that will force companies to disclose what all their staff are paid, a controversial move that is being contested hotly.so not just evil dentists are coy.

Back to you , if nothing else hopefully this thread will have warned you your self proposed treatment of multiple crowns/implants etc will do nothing than put you even further into the clutches of us vultures . Try to get some preventative treatment going, don't believe toothpaste ads, always read anything on the internet/newspaper with scepticism (after all what proof do you have any of us are dentists) and try to find a real life professional to trust... ask friends/family. Even you admitted there are probably a couple of honest dentists somewhere in the world.

theheathen

Pitlanepiglet wrote: »

LOL...I'm not a dentist, just a bored Saturday night web surfer (who incidentally has a fantastic dentist who has virtually solved my migraines and neck problems overnight when chiro's, physios and GP's have failed).

I love the fact that you appear to have registered (or re-registered under a new name presumably?) just so you can start a slanging match with dentists....:rotfl:

If your problems were TMJ related than physio would do nothing to ameliorate them, whereas bite adjustment by your dentist would. So your dentist has done his job, nothing more. I think the superlatives are rather OTT.