DO NOT want to start an arguement, genuine question..

Shermanator123

A huge big up to Kelloggs, totally agree!!!

FBaby

I totally agree when it comes to arrears, not as much when it comes to monthly payments. Arrears mean that the pwc had to cover for what the nrp should have been paying, ie. using the money that should have been hers, so totally normal it goes for what she wants when she gets it. However, I do believe that the nrp has a right to have a general idea of how the money he provides is spent. Not talking about receipts etc..., but an overall budget of what costs the kids is to my view not totally unreasonable.

clearingout

so if I have to give a general idea to my ex of my monthly budget (bearing in mind this is a man who thinks nothing to lifting the lid of my recycling bin and commenting on the contents from a financial point of view), do I get a general idea of his monthly budget? If he can challenge me on what I spend on the children (or on myself), can I challenge his expenditure on 2 cars (single man!), boat and subscription to the yacht club whilst we go without? Or if he pays his dues as per Government guidelines, I don't have a right to comment on his lifestyle but he still has a right to comment on mine?

This goes way beyond what is spent on children - it's about control of the PWC. My ex knows me as someone who struggles to spend money on herself at the best of times, give him this kind of right to pry into my lifestyle, and he'll control every aspect of my life and take away any pleasure from me that I might have (the odd salsa class and bottle of wine!). A divorce separates two people - he has no right to know anything about my life now, unless I choose to tell him. So no, I don't accept that a NRP should know anything about the income or expenditure of a PWC. Ever.

shell_542

It isn't always about control. Granted sometimes it is, there are controlling NRPs and PWCs out there. But it's wondering how the money they give from their OWN income is being spent on their child. Not on the PWC because the money is intended for the use of day to day costs of the child. So no, you wouldn't then be able to ask what he spends his own money on as it's his money, being spent on himself. But of the tables were ever to turn in the future and YOU became to NRP, maybe then you would be a little annoyed that you are giving a chunk of your wages away every month (not always much, if anything, with some NRPs I know) but you might be wondering as well what the money is spent on.

There's always the comment that an NRP is controlling and out if order to even query where their maintenance money is being spent and as if the PWC should ever be dictated to, as to how to spend it on the child, but the whole point is as an NRP, that is exactly what is happening to them. Their money, to spend on their child, is being decided by someone else.

I also hate the comments like "if you've got a problem with it, get custody of your kids". Yes, like it is that easy. There are some rubbish NRPs out there, probably those who feel so strongly about this have the really rubbish ones. But then there are some good ones who would give their left leg to have their child live with them most of the time, take on the day to day responsibilities but try are "not allowed" because the courts don't like giving custody to men, hardly ever, and their allowance of contact is normally 2-4 days A MONTH!

Just as I try and remember when reading on here that there are some really crap NRPs who do all they can to not pay for their children and let them down over and over, maybe it's worth trying to remember not all NRPs are as bad as yours. (a general "yours" btw, not to anyone imparticular)

clearingout

you're right of course, it would make me wonder what the ex was spending my money on if the tables were ever turned. The problem with this forum is the fact that we're all either PWC looking for help on getting the support our children deserve or NRP who are being screwed over right, left and centre and who are struggling to manage. The people managing the happy medium don't need a forum like this, I guess! However, I do maintain that it's about control but that's my experience.

I have a NRP who is both rubbish and fantastic all at the same time. I guess that's what makes is so frustrating - he loves his kids, would happily have them every day, turns up generally on time (give or take 10 minutes to annoy me!) and returns them (usually - we have had the odd incident) on time as well. However, he won't pay a penny - his rationale is that if I can't afford them, I shouldn't have them. I do know, however, he would be first in the queue at the CSA if I were to hand them to him (which is what he's trying to push me into) and would be living a lovely life, thank you very much. I also know that I would never get to see the children if he were to become PWC (my punishment for me being such a dreadful wife he was forced into having an affair, I guess!). And so we plod on - the main things is the children are OK, see both parents and are not aware of the difficulties between us. And I have places like this to vent in!

JulietAmber_2

I agree with all comments. PWC should not have to explain how they spend maintenance at the rate dictated by law. After all, they do not question the NRP as to how they spend THEIR income. The PWC, unlike NRP, sometimes has to work part time in order to be there for the children so maintenance is income, to be spent however they wish. In the rare cases when a child is neglected (and by this I mean underfed or cold - not that they don't have the latest iPod!) then of course the PWC could be expected to explain how she is spending his or her money in order to help him or her meet the child's basic needs.
I do know a couple of PWC who not only get maintenance, but also spousal maintenance. This is a whole different concept and I can understand a NRP's resentment when their ex has a new boyfriend, job etc and yet they are still 'supporting' them.
As for sending children in old clothes/no coats. I can understand PWC who do this if clothes go 'missing'. However, from a personal point of view, my partner would spend lots of money on his children - new trainers, swimming stuff etc when they visited and it was so annoying when they returned the following weekend without them and we had to buy them all over again. We now keep a draw for each child here with us of 'essentials' like swimming costumes, gloves, a coat, trainers and send them home in the clothes they arrived in. This seems fair.

clearingout

Oh, and I disagree that the courts 'allow' the PWC only 2 - 4 days a month. The norm these days seems to be every other weekend (Friday - Sunday, 4 nights there a month) and one night during the week (4 nights there). Although I agree, 8 nights isn't much. However, all the research suggests children are more settled with one home, rather than going backwards and forwards between two homes and that it is the quality of contact which matters far more than the quantity. Security for children comes from knowing they're loved by and supported by both parents, surely?

shell_542

It's only Fri to Mon if the NRP can get the children to and from school, which depending on distances/transport, isn't always possible. Also you've got the NRPs who don't work Mon -Fri 9-5, the every other weekend, one evening in the week doesn't always fit into today's society. Then the PWCs restricting over nights/ banning week days because it "interferes with school". It's a nightmare and where the other side of the coin comes into it, the rubbish PWCs.

There is also research out there showing shared care, with two reasonable adults, can be best for the children. The courts are very old fashioned.

I'm typing as an NRPP though, whose husband pays monthly, without fail and has to fight for time with his child with a PWC who doesn't want him involved. He currently is lucky to get 2 hours a week with his daughter. Court here we come, which isn't in anyone's best interests, the children or the adults.

13Kent

cte1111 wrote: »

This sort of thread makes me uneasy. NRP can all too easily forget that the costs of having a child aren't just the obvious things like clothes and school trips, but the hidden costs of a larger house,

It's not just the PWC that has the "hidden costs of a larger house" this applies to many NRP's too who need extra bedrooms so that their children can come to visit. Many of them also need to pay the costs of a reliable car that is large enough to fit in all their children and safe enough to make a long journey every other weekend to pick up their children - they cannot get by with a small runaround.

There are 'hidden costs' on both sides.

clearingout

so what's the answer? that the Government/legal system allows parents to sort it out for themselves? In which case, just how many children would go entirely unsupported by their NRP? Far more than now? Or would more of us come to an uneasy truce and children get something rather than nothing?

I am lucky, I am professional and capable of earning a reasonable salary (although not huge, and certainly no where near what my ex earns). But there are plenty of mums/PWC out there that don't have that advantage in life, usually through no fault of their own, and it is those children who are suffering...really suffering. Poverty has a major, major impact on life outcomes (or lack of) and that is why the CSA needs to exist. I am surviving, with tax credits, on a pittance and so are my three children. They dont' go without, generally (although would argue that they don't have the latest everything that many of their friends have) but I do. My ex chose to have children with me, we were married, we made sensible decisions around the timing of our children, who would look after them drops in wages etc. etc.. The CSA struggles to touch him as he's self-employed. What would you do with him? How would you make it fair for his children?

It is true that we all need a life, and a home, and new things to cheer us up sometimes and that costs for both NRPs and PWC are not necessarily that different. But for people like me, frankly, the system as it exists doesn't work and allows NRPs like my ex to get away with murder. Ditto, those NRPs who struggle to get any decent contact with their children. We all took chances when we married/committed to one person and had children. It didn't work out. We somehow have to make the best of the system as it stands or work out a seriously viable alternative and campaign for it. I'm not sure I can come up with anything better but am certainly interested in listening to anyone who has ideas!