Windows Installations Scaffolding - Advice appreciated

rabbitmumu

Hi all - please help and offer me some advice

I am planning to replace some (tricky) windows and have been obtaining some quotes. They are huge aluminium sliding windows and so there are not many providers available.

I live on the 2nd floor and was told by one of the suppliers that "I will need scaffolding because I will be liable if the workers fell down" and when I asked shouldn't the installing company have already purchased insurance? I was told that some installers may not have had done so......

Am I right to believe that it's actually NOT necessary to have scaffolding and windows can still be installed perfectly fine without one?

For argument's sake, if a worker really did fall, were i to be responsible? And does it make any sense to any of you that a lease (block of flat) would have required the leaseholders to have scaffolding when replacing windows?!

Many thanks and your advice would be appreciated.

Terri

DVardysShadow

Insurance? This will put right an accident if a worker falls from the 2nd floor? You want a company to purchase insurance rather than pay for scaffolding? You do know that insurance does not prevent accidents don't you?

Have you ever lifted in double glazing panels off a ladder? How about doing it double handed off 2 ladders? When it comes to a job like this, if you know how to do it without scaffolding, then do it yourself. Otherwise take quotes and make your choice. And bear in mind that if a company will take risks to do your job without scaffolding, they might not be too fussy about how they do your job

darich

^^ what he said......couldn't have put it better myself.

Years ago I helped a relative install a window in front of a garage that was being converted to a room.
Although I was youngster there were at least 6 neighbours holding that thing.....and it was dammed heavy.

If you can even find a ladder strong enough to hold a few men and a window as large as you describe then it'll probably be bigger, heavier, more dangerous and more expensive than a tower scaffold

rabbitmumu

@ DVardysShadow - thanks for your comments. Aren't all workers (e.g. gas fitters/ electrician) required to purchase insurance/ professional insurance? I was asking if they really need scaffolding, but at the same time I am shocked to hear their fitters may not have purchased insurance. Does that make any sense?

Also, given what you said, my thoughts are that scaffolding doesn't prevent anyone from falling / jumping from the 2nd floor too.

Another point is that I think the fitters will bring the windows inside the flat and then install them, rather than climbing from the scaffolding/ ladders outside. At least my previous window installers did that even there was scaffolding outside. I would be worried sick if they try to hold onto the scaffolding with one hand and hold the window with the other at the same time. Equally dangerous as climbing a ladder.

MX5huggy

What people do and what they are required to do are two different things.

The point about scaffolding is that you don't have hold on to it when on it.

Get your quotes and go with who you feel happy with, let them decide how to tackle the job.

I recommender my tame plumber to a friend for a boiler swap, BG wanted to have scaffolding to install the flue, my plumber used ladders he chose to do it like that it was up to him and his problem if he fell.

Check there insurance if you want, any commercial job would check the insurance before letting work commence.

DVardysShadow

Of course they need their liability insurance. It does no harm to check it out too. But for your problem it's a red herring. And of course, not only could someone fall or jump from scaffolding, a nearby practising opera singer might raise a tone which causes the bolts to loosen. These are all more red herrings.

If you are getting someone to do a quote for you, if you don't think they know what they are doing then you shouldn't ask them for a quote. If you disagree with how they want to do the job from the point of view of the affect on you and your property, you should discuss. But telling a company how to do its job, outside of your expertise, is a good way to find the good companies. They won't deal with you.

As far as I can see, you have never been on a ladder or a scaffold, let alone done work from one and your comment about scaffold being equally dangerous to a ladder is ridiculous. Being worried sick about someone working on a scaffold will cause them more problems than letting them do the job you are paying them to do.

rabbitmumu

@ MX5huggy - thanks for confirming it makes sense to check if they have professional insurance.

@ DVardysShadow - you are right, i have never been on a scaffold before, nor install a window. And I have heard people saying it's not necessary to have scaffolding, and because I know NOTHING, that's why i ask for advice. If I tell the installers what to do, or I know anything better, or i wish to do that myself, i wouldn't need to ask for advice.

You are entitled to your opinion but i have my rights to ask questions too. And who told you I told the companies what to do?! I only ask in here if they really need scaffolding. There is no need for personal attacks.

darich

Rabbitmumu

You are right to ask questions about subjects you know little about.
Having insurance and using scaffolding are two completely different things.
The scaffold is a tool used to complete a job while insurance covers unforeseen incidents and accidents.

Typically, double glazing can be installed from inside only - how often do you see scaffolding at a flat on the nth floor for double glazing installation - quite simply, you don't. However you say your windows are large - can they fit through a door way? is it physically possible for a couple of men to carry the frame up the stairs, round corners and position it for installation?

If the size of the frame necessitates lifting it in from outside then a scaffold is a legal requirement. Check out CDM 2007 regs - work must be done in a safe manner. Scaffold will allow the men to use both hands for their work - they won't hold on to the scaffold although they may use harnesses and attach themselves to it.

Public liability insurance on one hand is not your concern - it would cover the employees falling etc. However, it also covers your property should the company damage it - so asking about it, is no bad thing.

EDIT : you don't say if your building is an office or if you work from there - if you do then the CDM regs are much more onerous and you should probably read up on them if you're going to employ another company to work there in a potentially dangerous situation.

leveller2911

I have made and fitted many timber windows from the inside without scaffolding. I never take risks but use common sense.I made and fitted a curved, Queen Anne style window on the 4th floor of a property and all work was carried out from inside.If the windows can be taken through the property the generally they can be fitted from the inside safely.

I purchased a decent alluminium Tower scaffold about 16 months ago which has almost paid for itself already.It does make me chuckle when customers "suggest" that you don't need scaffold and yet most wouldn't even entertain climbing up one let alone work off one.That said prices for scaffolds have risen , but mainly due to regulations.

rabbitmumu

@ darich & leveller2911

Thank you so much for your replies. Although whether scaffolding is required or not depends on individual circumstances, your answers confirm my understanding (or at least part!) that it's not always necessary to have one.

In my old flat when they changed the UPVC windows for the whole block, the fitters used the scaffolding to access other floors to save time (instead of coming into the flat, then take the stairs/ lift to another flat etc) or have a cigarette only. They actually fitted the windows and frame from the inside.

Of course I understand that it may be more convenient to have scaffolding but as leveller2911 rightly said, it's not cheap. The scaffolding is almost of the cost of one of the smaller windows so when one of the companies said the fitters may not have insurance (as the reason why i need to have scaffolding), I just think that company is very dodgy. Had the company told me it's required because of regulations (i.e. size of frame etc), I would have been ok.

Re our current flat the frames are large but not any larger than the old place. But i will definitely check the rules as well as double checking the measurements to see if they fit. Thanks so much for the info.

In terms of the insurance, i will definitely need to check it too. It just sound dodgy too when I was told if someone fell then I would be liable too. In conclusion I just do not trust one of the companies who provided me the quotes.

Many thanks again for your advice :T

keystone

Everyone seems to have forgotten that nice little product of Prescotts HSE stasi called The Working At Height Regulations 2005. Serious fine for those caught not observing it if they should be and if you are paying someone to do a job then they should be. Its got very little to do with insurance.

Many types of replacement windows can be fitted from the inside these days but it does largely depend which way the glazing bars are fitted. Some types are still fitted from the outside. If so and as you live on the SECOND floor they will need scaffolding and you will need to pay for it.

Cheers