Consumer Power: Should will writers be regulated?

John_Pierpoint

PhiltheBear wrote: »

On the other hand...

It's true that probate fees can be huge. (NEVER let a bank act as executor - I saw one £13,000 estate charged £8,000 in fees!) But remember, equally, that your nearest and dearest may not be in a fit state to be your executors - or have the knowledge.

I don't think anyone can accurately forecast what it will cost to sort out the estate of an elderly person.

I have in the last 15 years been the executor for three relatives:
Great Aunt, mother and uncle.

John_Pierpoint

PhiltheBear wrote: »

On the other hand...

It's true that probate fees can be huge. (NEVER let a bank act as executor - I saw one £13,000 estate charged £8,000 in fees!) But remember, equally, that your nearest and dearest may not be in a fit state to be your executors - or have the knowledge.

I don't think anyone can accurately forecast what it will cost to sort out the estate of an elderly person.

I have in the last 15 years been the executor for three relatives:
Great Aunt, mother and uncle.

Great Aunt was relatively simple as she had lived almost long enough to get the queens telegram and required "care" in her dotage so there was nothing much left but an InHeritance Tax paying house inside the M25.

Mum could have been complex but I helped her with her tax return. That is claiming the (pensioner's) 10% tax band repayment on her savings and the additional personal allowance that pensioners get (but have to give back if they still enjoy the income of an average tax payer). Do I thought I knew where her assets were. Though the 1918 Prudential policy and the out of date savings certificates hidden
behind the gas meter came as a surprise.
[Remember that as an executor you are likely to need to do at least one Income Tax return as well as an IHT/probate return that is complex and bureaucratic if the estate is over 325K and then a return of the income generated during the probate period.]

So I was not expecting Uncle's estate to drag on for two years partly because the system is increasingly complex but mainly because there are "professionals" who are not up to their job.:

The wooden spoons go to:

A solicitor who split the estate into two by writing a partially intestate will.

Barclays Bank which sells a "bond" that is technically a Qualifying Time Deposit". Just try asking the average Barclays staff members, especially those helpful polite people in India to explain QTD.
[There is an 0800 number that bypasses most of the semi trained some times arrogant staff - I find that "please could you explain the rules for crossing cheques?" usually a good indication of depth of knowledge. Beware of finding yourself in the hands of the "bereavement department" - make sure you ask exactly which corporate entity is paying their wages.]

HMRC - as we all now know, but I discovered the hard way - the income tax part of this organisation is floundering. It has struggled with a tax code that is now the world's most complex as it tries to collect 50% of the national income. At the same time as a new computer system is introduced and the head count is cut.
Don't expect to get yor letters acknowledged, let alone answered, so you will spend your time wondering how much mailed ever arrives at its destination. You won't be allowed to use the on-line system like a normal tax payer.
When you get through to the centralised call centre try asking about QTD as a test of the operative's knowledge, than ask to speak to someone who knows what they are talking about and wait two days for a returned call.
[Only selected accountants are allowed to telephone a tax man bypassing the call centre these days]

So don't expect a professional to speed up your probate - they probably have a couple of dozen other estates to administer at the same time.

[I got in an auctioneer to see if the house contained anything of value and so I could fill in the the contents sub section of the IHT400 family of tax forms- we got chatting about his system: "I love banks - they just say clear the place". So he has a fortnightly system of valuation, with the minor (ie boot sale quality) stuff going to land fill at the beneficiaries expense and the almost valueless stuff going to the modern auction cycle (with charges amounting to about 50%). Stuff worth hopefully 250 quid plus goes through two cycles of "antique" auction with charges amounting to 15% - 25%, and if by then nobody has offered (say) 100 GBP for it - it then goes into the "modern" cycle, possibly on its way to land fill].

PhiltheBear

John, you underline what I advise. Appoint a relative or friend as executor - but as a safeguard give them a separate document advising them to use a professional accountant on a fee paid basis if they need help. It's perfectly OK to incur charges in the administration of an estate. But if a relative or friend does it then those charges ought to be kept down.

Obtaining probate on its own can be a nightmare - and that's if you know what to do. If you don't....

OTOH I'd never appoint a bank, solicitor, accountant or will writer as an executor OR as a 'joint executor'. If you do it's likely that they'll refuse to act unless the other executor resigns and lets them continue on their usual percentage and charge basis.

The other thing that one needs to do is make sure the executor is happy about being named executor. If not there are 2 problems. Firstly, they can resign without doing anything - which leaves the whole thing in a mess. Secondly, and much worse, they can start doing something - anything - and then find it's not as easy as expected. By doing anything they have 'inter-meddled'. Once that's happened they must continue and are legally responsible to do so.

That is not a happy situation.

stevepett

Will writers should be regulated and ALL will writers (and this includes solicitors who are not required to know anything at all about Wills) should undertake initial training and exams PLUS (crucially) at least 2 days ongoing up date training every year - SPECIFICALLY on the subject of Last Will (and Lasting Powers of Attorney, which should be a part of everyone's basic Legal Planning.
Those who assume that any solicitor has automatic understanding of the complexities of Will and Lasting Powers of Attorney is being naive and not asking intelligent questions like "how many hours a year training do you undertake to keep you knowledge of Wills and Lasting Powers of Attorney up to date??"
Most solicitors (and, sadly, many Will Writers) would be totally unable to provide proof of any such training in the last 5 years.
Society of Will Writers members are required to do at least 2 full days a year, and most do far more than that.

John_Pierpoint

PhiltheBear wrote: »

John, you underline what I advise. Appoint a relative or friend as executor - but as a safeguard give them a separate document advising them to use a professional accountant on a fee paid basis if they need help. It's perfectly OK to incur charges in the administration of an estate. But if a relative or friend does it then those charges ought to be kept down.

Obtaining probate on its own can be a nightmare - and that's if you know what to do. If you don't....

OTOH I'd never appoint a bank, solicitor, accountant or will writer as an executor OR as a 'joint executor'. If you do it's likely that they'll refuse to act unless the other executor resigns and lets them continue on their usual percentage and charge basis.

The other thing that one needs to do is make sure the executor is happy about being named executor. If not there are 2 problems. Firstly, they can resign without doing anything - which leaves the whole thing in a mess. Secondly, and much worse, they can start doing something - anything - and then find it's not as easy as expected. By doing anything they have 'inter-meddled'. Once that's happened they must continue and are legally responsible to do so.

That is not a happy situation.

I agree, in all three cases above I have asked a solicitor for a second opinion, either to confirm my reading of the situation or to satisfy beneficiaries that an "expert" has endorsed my decision(s).
Expenditure varied from 50 quid to 250 depending on the complexity of the estate.
I think I was trying to warn about problems, that will emerge and need to be handled, and that no executor can tell in advance, how many alligators will bite, as he tries to drain the swamp.
Knowing your own limitations is important - but we do have good guides and up to date opinions on the interweb forums like this one.

Baggysdad

Society of Will Writers members are required to do at least 2 full days a year, and most do far more than that.

Really? Care to provide the evidence to support that claim?

Meanwhile I'll treat that remark like the rest of your claims in this thread - as utter nonsense.

localhero

stevepett wrote:

Society of Will Writers members are required to do at least 2 full days a year, and most do far more than that.

I had the misfortune to start my willwriting career working for a member of the Society of Willwriters.

He didn't have a clue but was happy to pay his annual membership to obtain a veneer of respectability by using their logo.

It's also worth noting that the SWW never bothered to reply to my questions to them (post number 55) about one of their members with questionable ethics on this thread:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/21730799#Comment_21730799

What a shower.

stevepett

Look out for a Will Writer who is a member of the IPW or the Society of Will Writers, all of whom will carry full professional indemnity insurance and must carry out regular ongoing training on the subject of Will, Lasting Powers of Attorney - a minimum of 16 hours a year, though most members vastly exceed that.

Try asking a solicitor (non TEP) how many hours a year they have spend in each of the last 3 years training SPECIFICALLY on Wills and LPAs.

Sadly, it is entirely possible for anyone to set up as a Will writer without experience. There are other professional bodies, some of which may be very good, but some of which are merely fronts for commercial organisations, so all I can vouch for is the IPW and the Society of Will Writers.

Stephen Pett

stevepett

Baggysdad wrote: »

Really? Care to provide the evidence to support that claim?

Meanwhile I'll treat that remark like the rest of your claims in this thread - as utter nonsense.

It is a requirement of member ship and each member is required to submit a return to the central Office every year.

It is a fact, not a conjecture.

Are you by any chance a solicitor?

stevepett

localhero wrote: »

I had the misfortune to start my willwriting career working for a member of the Society of Willwriters.

He didn't have a clue but was happy to pay his annual membership to obtain a veneer of respectability by using their logo.

It's also worth noting that the SWW never bothered to reply to my questions to them (post number 55) about one of their members with questionable ethics on this thread:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/21730799#Comment_21730799

What a shower.

Every profession has bad eggs - you have only to check the cost of paying out claims against solicitors to realise that.