'What religion are you?' poll discussion

Gareth_Lazelle

adrian_clark wrote: »

The point is that it is not my place to persuade you or set out a series of arguments in support of my particular worldview.

Absolutely it isn't, and I wouldn't listen if you tried (I doubt anyone does - people are just wired that way when it comes to their beliefs, they really do have to come to them on their own).

And likewise I wouldn't expect you to listen to me if I where to try something similar,

But I am truly interested in what made you (or anyone else for that matter - please don't feel that I am singling you out) jump one way, towards whatever particular variety of Christianity you selected, rather than another (be that another flavour of Christianity, or another Faith altogether),

And I am very interested in how people justify that decision (and how much serious thought and research they put into the alternatives - I find it quite scary how many folks choose to vote and pray based upon their parents views rather than their own (I have heard of respecting your elders, but once an adult, I do think people should be responsible for making their own decisions), perhaps we never really grow up at all... Though I think in most cases it probably comes down to laziness),

I guess it is the thought-process that intrigues me,

Like the early Christian church and Christians around the world today I now get to deal with ridicule and risk persecution.

I think the time of Christianity as "the underdog" and the "rebel" has long past - and in many parts of the world I would consider Christianity to be "the Man" - which is to say that it is performing the ridicule and persecution, rather than receiving it,

And likewise, I think that most faiths (and not just Christianity by any stretch, but including Christianity, as well as agnostics and atheists) suffer ridicule and persecution in at least some part of the world,

The testimony of several eye witnesses that corroborate each others story is powerful in any court of law. If they testified against a pedophile, rapist or cruel murderer and a judge released him without being held to account there would be a righteous outcry.

There might be outcry (especially in the redtops), but it may or may not be justified (you might agree if you where innocent and imprisoned as a consequence!)... That said, if there where multiple eye-witnesses there was probably other (physical) evidence as well (though not so much with most religious texts),

Nevertheless, that's something of an aside. And in this case most people would expect the witnesses to understand that what they where seeing was !!!!!philia, rape or murder.

Would you expect a witness to understand that something was a miracle brought about by god? That seems less likely, and much more prone to conflicting reports (which are notably absent),

In that light consider that those used to taking witness statements frequently say that a strong leader can easily lead a witness without even realising it, especially if the witness is already confused about the events, and crystallise false accounts into their memories so that they believe the inadvertent mis-truth they speak - resulting it reports that may well corroborate each other even if completely false,

Plus, well... Other faiths have eye-witness accounts too - why are theirs less believable than those in the bible?

I do not envy those who face a confusing world of competing truth claims.

Unless you are living in total isolation (and by that, I include isolation from the internet, which is full of competing theories), we all live in a world of competing truth claims - it's part of our nature,

adrian_clark

Gareth_Lazelle wrote: »

Absolutely it isn't, and I wouldn't listen if you tried (I doubt anyone does - people are just wired that way when it comes to their beliefs, they really do have to come to them on their own).

And likewise I wouldn't expect you to listen to me if I where to try something similar,

But I am truly interested in what made you (or anyone else for that matter - please don't feel that I am singling you out) jump one way, towards whatever particular variety of Christianity you selected, rather than another (be that another flavour of Christianity, or another Faith altogether),

And I am very interested in how people justify that decision (and how much serious thought and research they put into the alternatives - I find it quite scary how many folks choose to vote and pray based upon their parents views rather than their own (I have heard of respecting your elders, but once an adult, I do think people should be responsible for making their own decisions), perhaps we never really grow up at all... Though I think in most cases it probably comes down to laziness),

I guess it is the thought-process that intrigues me,
I think the time of Christianity as "the underdog" and the "rebel" has long past - and in many parts of the world I would consider Christianity to be "the Man" - which is to say that it is performing the ridicule and persecution, rather than receiving it,

And likewise, I think that most faiths (and not just Christianity by any stretch, but including Christianity, as well as agnostics and atheists) suffer ridicule and persecution in at least some part of the world,
There might be outcry (especially in the redtops), but it may or may not be justified (you might agree if you where innocent and imprisoned as a consequence!)... That said, if there where multiple eye-witnesses there was probably other (physical) evidence as well (though not so much with most religious texts),

Nevertheless, that's something of an aside. And in this case most people would expect the witnesses to understand that what they where seeing was !!!!!philia, rape or murder.

Would you expect a witness to understand that something was a miracle brought about by god? That seems less likely, and much more prone to conflicting reports (which are notably absent),

In that light consider that those used to taking witness statements frequently say that a strong leader can easily lead a witness without even realising it, especially if the witness is already confused about the events, and crystallise false accounts into their memories so that they believe the inadvertent mis-truth they speak - resulting it reports that may well corroborate each other even if completely false,

Plus, well... Other faiths have eye-witness accounts too - why are theirs less believable than those in the bible?
Unless you are living in total isolation (and by that, I include isolation from the internet, which is full of competing theories), we all live in a world of competing truth claims - it's part of our nature,

Gareth,
I am sorry I was unclear. My point is that we are surrounded by truth claims. For example you say that truth claims are a part of our nature. I agree with you. However, only one of them can be true. Take the eastern philosophical religions that will tell you there are many paths to karma or enlightenment, or the western liberal intelligencia assertion that it is a right to believe whatever we choose and unjust to make a single claim because no one can have the truth; they are making claims on 'a truth'. Offering, as some do a view of the mountain with many paths to its summit, where we will find the god of all 'faiths', is in itself a grossly imperialistic truth claim because the person making it has to be above the mountain looking down onto god and all the ignorant people walking up their chosen paths.

My point is that God came into human history as the man Jesus Christ and made many startling truth claims, none more offensive to the religious people of the day than he was God. So this penniless homeless preacher, without all the wealth, status and qualifications, exposed the priests and pharisees as hypocrites. When He was asked just who do you think you are he said "truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). Referring to the term God used for himself when Moses asked Him from before the burning bush, "who shall I say sent me?', God said, " tell them 'I am' sent you". (Exodus 3:14). Jesus Christ had a reputation for having incredible insight and knowledge into the Bible (the Pentateuch) and he knew precisely how his words would be understood.

Jesus challenged religious authority and offered a completely different perspective on God. Rather than this distant capricious God who demanded sacrifice, He revealed the picture of a loving father, a connected God merciful and forgiving. For His efforts He was brutally tortured and murdered. Mel Gibson's film, horrific though it is, only goes part way to illustrating the brutality of crucifixion.

He promised to take people out of the darkness of the world and into light. if you want an explanation of why I am on the Christian team it would be because Jesus chose me and revealed himself to me in a dark world. I have travelled and seen cruelty and suffering. I have seen divorce, though thankfully been spared, domestic and street violence, hunger and neglect of children. I have seen the failed solutions mankind offers, in the form of ideas, scientific theories, politics and religions and experienced nothing but darkness. And then I have experienced the power and strength of God, the light and hope in my soul and the wisdom and strength that comes through reading His word and getting to know his character and nature. Simply put, I have purpose and meaning for living and dying in a corrupt and decaying world through a personal relationship with the sovereign God of the universe.

That's my news. Not good advice as religious folk will offer but news that Jesus Christ conquered sin death and hell by physically resurrecting from death, and then met and spoke with hundreds of people. Now I expect you will handle this news in much the way I would have done a little more than three year ago. You will use logic, relying on your rational mind for explanations. You will be sorting out all the lies and nonsense that the world offers, through its competing truth claims and reach what you 'believe' to be the truth. You have a soul and its fate depends on the outcome of that decision.

Mr.Harley_Quin

Mr Clarke. You dodged my question. What of this world would show you that you are wrong?

You seem to think that the bible is a compass, yet I love my family just as much as you do, but I am godless.

adrian_clark

Mr.Harley_Quin wrote: »

Mr Clarke. You dodged my question. What of this world would show you that you are wrong?

You seem to think that the bible is a compass, yet I love my family just as much as you do, but I am godless.

Please forgive me if I seemed to dodge your question. It was not intended and I have tried my best to answer. It was posted on a previous page but here's the final paragraph again if it helps:

And finally for the short answer to your question about what would make me accept I was wrong?: When I die if I don't, as I hope, stand before Jesus to hear him say, "well done good and faithful servant, come into your rest", I will accept that I was wrong :-)

Vaila

i think the op did not want to hear others opinions when posting this, therefore why continue this one sided post, because after tediously reading through the previous posts it seems pointless to try and inform adrian that not every wants to believe in a religion that dare i say is a fairly new , and rather contadictory one !

adrian_clark

arran_m wrote: »

i think the op did not want to hear others opinions when posting this, therefore why continue this one sided post, because after tediously reading through the previous posts it seems pointless to try and inform adrian that not every wants to believe in a religion that dare i say is a fairly new , and rather contadictory one !

I would be encouraged and welcome the view that not everyone wants to believe in a religion. In a confusing world of competing truth claims, where the book shelves of Waterstones are packed with self help books, where radio and television bombard us with their version of truth and bright people are offering all kinds of ideas and theories, it is best to reject the claims of ultimate truth offered by the world's religions.

That is why I have tried in this dialogue to avoid my opinion and simply present the reported facts about the cultural context in which we live here in the UK. Divorce rates rise, with men often abandoning families to take another woman; men seek women willing to give their bodies away on the cheap then abandon their responsibilities leaving mum's to survive supported by the state. Wrecked people seek ways to escape the dark world of bitterness and hopelessness by depending on gossip, gambling, alcohol and porno, dragging themselves and those around them into deeper sadness. For the !!!!!! addict, providing the funds that help fuel a shameful global sex industry of people trafficking and child abuse.

I hate religion and religious people who make rules about how we should live, rules that people cannot possibly achieve, fueling depression and addictions. That was the whole reason God came into human history as the man Jesus Christ, to give us hope. This was his purpose, to offer forgiveness for our mistreatment of those who once trusted us, forgiveness for failing to live up to the promises we once made and to offer a new life with real purpose for each man and each woman. I came by to let you know that Christianity does not offer good advice, like the world's religions, but good news; a message of hope, mercy and reconciliation in a world torn apart by abuse, neglect and indifference.

But don't become a Christian because you want purpose, though you will get it, don't come because you want to put the filth and shame of your life behind you, though you will be able to, don't come because you want to be a better husband, father and neighbour, though you can be; ask for forgiveness, turn to Jesus christ and become a Christian because it's true!

bulletproof_1979

adrian_clark wrote: »

turn to Jesus christ and become a Christian because it's true!

And here's the bit where we ask how do you know it's true? What evidence have you got for us?

Vaila

i dont understan what preaching about a religion has to do with money saving !!! speak about your god in another forum , this realy isnt the place op

adrian_clark

bulletproof_1979 wrote: »

And here's the bit where we ask how do you know it's true? What evidence have you got for us?

I know it's true because of the experience of living my life in a way that I could never have imagined possible. Living with new purpose, different desires, more meaningful and sustainable relationships and an abiding sense of satisfaction from the overwhelming power of love from God.

However, the point is that only by your own free will can you come into a loving relationship with anyone, not least of all God. If you choose to adopt the secular democratic world's humanistic truth claim, that man is ultimately sovereign in the universe and all faiths have forms of validity but non have ultimate truth, then you reject Jesus Christ as a liar, you reject Islam as false, Judaism and all the other religions with their competing truth claims as nonsense.

Moreover, and this addresses the point of why would Martin Lewis decide to start a discussion religion on a saving money forum? If you do come to recognise that Jesus, a blue collar worker, who learned a trade from his step dad, became an itenerent preacher, was homeless, penniless, was betrayed by a close friend, abandoned, tortured and murdered by the religious crowd, was who he claimed to be and did what he said he came to do, died and was resurrected from the dead, it changes everything.

It changes how you view and manage your money, changes your relationships and allows you to see strangers, neighbours, the neglected and abused as image bearers of God with equal value, dignity and worth. It provides different purpose for saving, earning and managing your finances. There is nothing wrong with being rich, nothing wrong with being poor, it's about how well you manage the wealth you have been entrusted with, whether that's only a little or a great deal. Being miserly or generous reflects the condition of your heart and as the health of your heart improves through a maturing relationship with Jesus Christ so your desire to manage your resources improves.

Vaila

i dont mean to state the obvious , but there a lot of other religions out there other than other fairly modern christianity, however i see know one who follows other religions trying to preach about their faith money saving or not as much as you sir