Forum Home» Money Saving Polls

'What religion are you?' poll discussion - Page 18

New Post Advanced Search
Important update! We have recently reviewed and updated our Forum Rules and FAQs. Please take the time to familiarise yourself with the latest version.

'What religion are you?' poll discussion

edited 28 September 2010 at 4:32PM in Money Saving Polls
350 replies 42.1K views
1151618202135

Replies

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    0 posts
    Holiday Haggler
    MoneySaving Newbie
    Big bible plothole that always confuses me - there are three occasions where there is a mass killing of a population by god; The 'Noah' flood, the Sodom and Gomorrah incident and the killing of the Egyptian first-borns (last of the 10 plagues).

    Yet.. later on, one of the big 10 commandments are 'Thou shall not kill'

    I'm confused, is it only ok to commit genocide if you're a holy power?
  • edited 17 October 2010 at 7:41AM
    adrian_clarkadrian_clark Forumite
    105 posts
    edited 17 October 2010 at 7:41AM
    Eric_Pisch wrote: »
    love it

    just two problems with your argument, it instantly rubbishes all other religions

    its based on a children's book written by people who where one step up the evolutionary ladder from cave dwelling ars3 scratchers

    nice try :)

    Not one book but in fact 66 books with 44 authors written over a period of around 3000 years. The authors may not have been members of the academic elite, educated beyond their intelligence with lots of letters after their name, but they were faithful and wrote through the empowering of God, the Holy Spirit, the third member of the Trinity. In some cases they were just ordinary hard working men like Peter, who was a fisherman or James, Jesus's brother, who would have learned his Dad Joseph's trade. Or then there was Moses who had a privileged education in the Egyptian court, but had to flee to also take a shepherding job and ended up writing the first five books of the Bible. Then Luke, a physician, writing about 30 years after the crucifixion, who interviewed eye witnesses to Jesus's life, death, burial and resurrection.

    The point is that it's no ordinary story book, it's reportage through which we get to learn about the character and nature of God. It provides insights to the whole of human history, from the beginning to the end. It is not, as some would like, a scientific chronicle, spelling out everything we want to know but God's way of communicating with what we each need to know with many things kept secret because you and I don't need know (Deuteronomy 29.29).

    And yes you are theologically astute in your observation, it is absolutely exclusive. There are not multiple truths, many paths to enlightenment or different religions believing in one amorphous god. There many false or demonic gods, there are many religious claims, supported by all kinds of philosophical reasoning. There are scientific and political theories in which people put great faith but there is only one God. Rubbish is an apt word because all of mankind's work is rubbish to God, who is the essence of Love and Justice and there is nothing we can do to redeem ourselves in his sight. (Isaiah 64.6). That was my point about competing truth claims, only one can be true, the rest have to be lies and Jesus said that He was "the Way, the Truth and the Life "(John 14.6).

    So to appreciate why the firstborn of Egypt were killed, why the floods were sent to wipe out the world's populations and why the whole world is finite, decaying and corrupt and will eventually, as scientists keep reminding us, will eventually be destroyed, you'll need your Bible, good mainstream Bible study commentaries, and teaching. Mars Hill Church of Seattle has plenty of quality free material. Armed with this we can begin to study the character and nature of God, who is loving, kind and patient. Along the way we get to unpack questions of murder and mayhem, infidelity and betrayal, great love stories and perversions and valuable lessons in our role and purpose as men and women living in a world where there is cruelty, brutality, poverty and neglect.
  • SalaamSalaam Forumite
    22 posts
    Mr Clark, please if you're going to quote from the Bible, please quote the full verse. You note "That was my point about competing truth claims, only one can be true, the rest have to be lies and Jesus said that He was "the Way, the Truth and the Life "(John 14.6)" If you quote the full verse, it states "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” This clearly indicates that the 'Father' and Jesus are two different entities. However, you have claimed in your previous post that Jesus is god.

    Also, if you compare John 14:7 to the Quran 3:31, Say (O Muhammad to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Remarkably similar verses do you not think?
  • cyberbobcyberbob Forumite
    9.5K posts
    Red_Doe wrote: »
    If that was aimed at me, I`m not an atheist, sorry.
    No it wasn't aimed at you I was just pointing out that that statement can be applied to athiests
  • Saleem and Adrian, what would make you accept you are wrong? If I see god or some direct action of his then I would change my view in an instant.

    I am also curious as to how to reconcile the falsehoods in your holy books. Creations Vs Evolution. Sun moving around the earth. Etc Etc.
    "Mr. Quin smiled, and a stained glass panel behind him invested him for just a moment in a motley garment of coloured light..."
  • Important update! We have recently reviewed and updated our Forum Rules and FAQs. Please take the time to familiarise yourself with the latest version.
  • edited 19 October 2010 at 7:02AM
    adrian_clarkadrian_clark Forumite
    105 posts
    edited 19 October 2010 at 7:02AM
    Saleem and Adrian, what would make you accept you are wrong? If I see god or some direct action of his then I would change my view in an instant.

    I am also curious as to how to reconcile the falsehoods in your holy books. Creations Vs Evolution. Sun moving around the earth. Etc Etc.

    It is an interesting question thank you and one I would wrestle with but it is difficult. It's much like asking what would make me accept that this keyboard I am using doesn't really exist. You see I believe in God because of the historical evidence presented reporting the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ through eye witness accounts, the majesty of his creation that surrounds me each day and the in-dwelling power of the third member of the Trinity, God the Holy Spirit, through who I have conversations with God all day every day. I know this sounds as whacky to you as it would have to me a few years ago, before I was a Christian, but I can only offer you the evidence that I have accepted. God hears and answers my prayers, he will hear and answer yours.

    Are there people in your life that you love? If you have a spouse, children, parents or friends who are the object of your affection, compassion, care and love, then you know something of the character and nature of God. If you would be angry if someone threatened them in any way and you would seek justice to pay for any wrong committed against them, then you understand something of the character and nature of God. Beyond the material world as we know it, beyond the tips of the fingers that type these letters, there is more, much more.

    When I married my wife I entered into a covenant to have and to hold, for richer for poorer, for better or worse, in sickness and in health, till death us do part. This was not a contract, where one party has to fulfill their part of the bargain or the other could move on, this was a lifetime covenant where we promised to keep loving each other, whatever. If wake up and don't feel the degree of affection I did yesterday for my wife, have an argument and don't feel as emotionally bonded with her for a period, or just have a season of not being happy with our relationship, I still continue to love her because that is the promise I entered into. If my love for her was conditional, if I was forced to love her by some third person, then the sincerity of my love could be brought into question. I need my complete free will to offer my unconditional love to my wife. That's the the kind of love that God has for us so that's why he inevitably gifted us free will so that we could love him, not as robots but as his image bearers, made in his image and likeness, his children.

    And that's the exclusive nature of God, not that we love him through our effort or by following religious texts and creeds but that he first loved us to the point of death. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16. With that it is important to understand that there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons in one God and that God came into human history to live, suffer and die to pay for your sin and my sin. That's the nature of true love, that's the extent of the love our father in heaven has for us: "Greater love has on one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends...". John 15:13 We have a friend in Jesus, who lives; ruling and reigning, King of Kings, Lord of Lords who will come again in glory and every knee shall bow, every tongue confess.

    It's an incredible promise, a tough truth to grasp in a world of competing truth claims, religious rules and scientific theories but that's the way it is. God gifts us sciences, beauty, creativity and ideas with which to explore and enjoy his creation, there are no contradictions, just competing errors, theories and ideas. I wish you well on your journey to determine the truth.

    And finally for the short answer to your question about what would make me accept I was wrong?: When I die if I don't, as I hope, stand before Jesus to hear him say, "well done good and faithful servant, come into your rest", I will accept that I was wrong :-)
  • edited 19 October 2010 at 9:03AM
    Gareth_LazelleGareth_Lazelle Forumite
    110 posts
    edited 19 October 2010 at 9:03AM
    It is an interesting question thank you and one I would wrestle with but it is difficult. It's much like asking what would make me accept that this keyboard I am using doesn't really exist. You see I believe in God because of the historical evidence presented reporting the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ through eye witness accounts, the majesty of his creation that surrounds me each day... <snip>
    That does all sound rather circumstantial at best?

    Lots of second-hand information (which may be subject to bias even if it is factually correct, and the witness fully understood the events they witnessed (and we are talking about pretty far out events - what are the chances that they really understood what was going on without having a third party explain it to them... And what does that do to the informations reliability) - witnesses are considered notoriously unreliable sources of information in trials and suchlike), and information from sources with vested interests,

    Asking as someone who is very much undecided on religion, what to you makes the views presented in the bible more convincing than those presented in other holy books or by other religious groups?

    After all, most other holy books present historical evidence through eye-witness accounts too - why is the bible more reliable than those other books? Why are they full of fairy tales and lies, and why is the bible not?

    And while you are thinking about it, consider that using evidence from the bible to support an argument about the reliability of the bible could be considered something of a circular argument... Especially as it's hardly likely that the writers of the bible would include contradictory books in the bible (although there are odd rumours about books removed from the bible since its compilation, as they didn't fit in with the churches "view of the world" - but that kind of makes my point - even if the bible was accurate, it has been somewhat "edited" (and badly translated) over the last few thousand years - so how reliable is the current version, or has the "fallibility of man" been a factor here too),
    If you would be angry if someone threatened them in any way and you would seek justice to pay for any wrong committed against them, then you understand something of the character and nature of God.
    God is vengeful? That's quite a disturbing suggestion, and more likely than anything else you have said to turn me away from your faith,

    You are saying that God is part of a grand cycle of vengeance and violence - and so really there is no escape from it - ever. Doesn't sound like a "peaceful" or "good" god to me (perhaps evil would describe it best)... There really is only pain and suffering if that is the case, because both sides of any disagreement can hurt and both sides can suffer and wish for retribution, and both sides can still be good people.

    And as a final side-note - he expects us to "turn the other cheek", but does not himself. A bit of a double-standard (God is a hypocrite? I find that hard to believe) no?


    Apologies if the tone of this message seems harsh, but it really intrigues me as an 'outsider' than one "story" can be considered more plausible than another on what seems to be the flimsiest of evidence and pretexts.

    It always strikes me that a believers defence of their faith frequently come across as "justification after the fact" rather than a measured decision about what they believe,

    And to a point that is fine, but if I as an outsider have to pick between faiths there is almost no measure I can use as a reference - they all just look like stories with extremely limited interaction with the day-to-day world.

    My personal conclusion is that it's best to just live as 'good' a life as I can, and hope for the best. If you turn out to be correct about your god, and your god takes issue with me being a good person, but not worshipping him in the 'correctly ordained way', then I figure he didn't deserve my respect anyway
    - GL
  • SalaamSalaam Forumite
    22 posts
    "If I see god or some direct action of his then I would change my view in an instant."

    Perhaps the best proof lies in the fact that when human nature is free from prejudice, it tends to be a believing nature. Before anyone accuses me of being too subjective, I would like to relate this interesting story.
    Imam Al-Ghazali was a highly renowned scholar who rose to fame in an age which was characterized by its great variety of intellectual and philosophical schools of thought. Many Orientalists consider him the greatest philosopher in Islamic history.
    It is said that Al-Ghazali was once walking along the street and people were keen to express their admiration and respect of him. A very old woman was not particularly amazed by what she saw. She asked who the man was. Someone answered: "Do you not know him? He is the one who knows one thousand proofs of Allah's existence." The old woman answered: "So what? Had he not had one thousand doubts, he would not have had one thousand proofs." Al-Ghazali overheard this reply. He smiled and offered a little prayer in these words: "My Lord, grant me the strength of faith old people have."
    The story is significant in the sense that it is man who determines the level of evidence he requires in order to believe in Allah. If he allows his nature to look freely without restraining or checking it by prejudices, social prejudices, personal desires, or interests, he will be so much closer to faith. This is indeed the message we understand from the Qur'an.
    The Qur'an draws our attention to the world around us and invites us to contemplate on every aspect of creation. It tells us that there are pointers and indications in the universe which prove without any shadow of doubt, that there is no deity save Allah, the Creator of all. If we were to reflect on these, the only conclusion we would derive from them is that Allah is the Creator of all and the Lord of all.

    Please go to http://www.ediscoverislam.com/About-Islam/The-religion-of-Islam/who-do-muslims-worship and there is a video clip on the right called 'Does God exist'.

    "I am also curious as to how to reconcile the falsehoods in your holy books. Creations Vs Evolution. Sun moving around the earth. Etc Etc."

    On the website referred to above, ediscoverislam.com, you will find answers to your questions relating to Islam and science.
  • SalaamSalaam Forumite
    22 posts
    Mr Clark: "...With that it is important to understand that there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three persons in one God and that God came into human history to live, suffer and die to pay for your sin and my sin."

    Not according to Deutronomy 24:6: The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Also see Ezekiel 18:20 and 2 Kings 14:6.

    Trinity: the greatest commandment is to know that your Lord is One Lord. No where does it say the greatest commandment is 3 in one. If you read the Torah and the Bible about the other prophets, they all said worship ONE Lord, and since there were many thousands sent before Jesus (peace be upon him) which proclaimed the Oneness and not THREE, how can Jesus (pbuh) claim three in One? Also, where is the word 'Trinity' in the Bible - please quote the verse.
  • edited 20 October 2010 at 7:51AM
    adrian_clarkadrian_clark Forumite
    105 posts
    edited 20 October 2010 at 7:51AM
    That does all sound rather circumstantial at best?

    Lots of second-hand information (which may be subject to bias even if it is factually correct, and the witness fully understood the events they witnessed (and we are talking about pretty far out events - what are the chances that they really understood what was going on without having a third party explain it to them... And what does that do to the informations reliability) - witnesses are considered notoriously unreliable sources of information in trials and suchlike), and information from sources with vested interests,

    Asking as someone who is very much undecided on religion, what to you makes the views presented in the bible more convincing than those presented in other holy books or by other religious groups?

    After all, most other holy books present historical evidence through eye-witness accounts too - why is the bible more reliable than those other books? Why are they full of fairy tales and lies, and why is the bible not?

    And while you are thinking about it, consider that using evidence from the bible to support an argument about the reliability of the bible could be considered something of a circular argument... Especially as it's hardly likely that the writers of the bible would include contradictory books in the bible (although there are odd rumours about books removed from the bible since its compilation, as they didn't fit in with the churches "view of the world" - but that kind of makes my point - even if the bible was accurate, it has been somewhat "edited" (and badly translated) over the last few thousand years - so how reliable is the current version, or has the "fallibility of man" been a factor here too),
    God is vengeful? That's quite a disturbing suggestion, and more likely than anything else you have said to turn me away from your faith,

    You are saying that God is part of a grand cycle of vengeance and violence - and so really there is no escape from it - ever. Doesn't sound like a "peaceful" or "good" god to me (perhaps evil would describe it best)... There really is only pain and suffering if that is the case, because both sides of any disagreement can hurt and both sides can suffer and wish for retribution, and both sides can still be good people.

    And as a final side-note - he expects us to "turn the other cheek", but does not himself. A bit of a double-standard (God is a hypocrite? I find that hard to believe) no?


    Apologies if the tone of this message seems harsh, but it really intrigues me as an 'outsider' than one "story" can be considered more plausible than another on what seems to be the flimsiest of evidence and pretexts.

    It always strikes me that a believers defence of their faith frequently come across as "justification after the fact" rather than a measured decision about what they believe,

    And to a point that is fine, but if I as an outsider have to pick between faiths there is almost no measure I can use as a reference - they all just look like stories with extremely limited interaction with the day-to-day world.

    My personal conclusion is that it's best to just live as 'good' a life as I can, and hope for the best. If you turn out to be correct about your god, and your god takes issue with me being a good person, but not worshipping him in the 'correctly ordained way', then I figure he didn't deserve my respect anyway

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You represent a worldview that is common in my family and many friends. One thing that unites us is an instinctive animosity to the world's religions. Religion's message is 'join us, follow our rules, pray in this way, read these holy books, undertake a particular task and you will merit your salvation, our god will love you'. We can witness the brutal consequences of religion each day. Of course there are additional religions like sex, worshipped through porn, adultery and perversion; there is success, where it's all about conquering and rising to the top at the expense of family, neighbour and colleague; there is reputation, how people perceive me has value above all else. People's religion is revealed in where they invest their time, treasure, talent and emotion.

    The point is that it is not my place to persuade you or set out a series of arguments in support of my particular worldview. I can tell you my story. That being, until about three years ago, I shared a similar attitude as you and now, through a personal relationship with a loving and just God, who is a father, I am much to my own surprise, reporting that Jesus is in fact who he said he was and did what he said he came to do.

    Like the early Christian church and Christians around the world today I now get to deal with ridicule and risk persecution. In places like Iran, Saudi Arabia and parts of northern Sudan I would face torture and death by simply loving and serving people as Jesus loved and served them. But when you worship a homeless guy, who was brought up by his step dad in a small middle eastern village, became an itinerant preacher and was tortured and murdered for claiming he was God then it kind of goes with the turf.

    Many of the questions that arise about God, whether it's unpacking his character and nature, through understanding the doctrine of the trinity; "how can there be one God but in three persons?", needs to be understood by studying the Bible accompanied by good teaching. There are teaching Bibles, and commentaries to accompany each of its 66 books. People want to know how can a loving God permit suffering in the world? How can the Bible be the infallible word of God in company with scientific research and theory? Answers to these questions help each man and woman appreciate their role and purpose in this brief and uncertain life.

    The testimony of several eye witnesses that corroborate each others story is powerful in any court of law. If they testified against a pedophile, rapist or cruel murderer and a judge released him without being held to account there would be a righteous outcry. We expect justice for the victim, anything less would be gross and unloving. Justice and Love are inseparable. You cannot love someone with lies, we need the truth, Jesus said: "Abide in my word......then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (John 8:32). I do not envy those who face a confusing world of competing truth claims. However, the good news is that there is mercy, forgiveness and hope from our loving Father God who wants and needs nothing from you because he's a dad and all the dad's understand the power of that love. Jesus said, "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11,28).
This discussion has been closed.

Quick links

Essential Money | Who & Where are you? | Work & Benefits | Household and travel | Shopping & Freebies | About MSE | The MoneySavers Arms | Covid-19 & Coronavirus Support