Useless jobs still being recruited for in the civil service

marklv

bendix wrote: »

So, to clarify then marklv, you have absolutely no experience of living on a council estate, right?

What are you alluding to?

bendix

marklv wrote: »

What are you alluding to?

I refer the honorable gentleman to his own words in post 165 on this thread:

" . . . . There is nothing 'nasty' about my views but, at the same time, they are not the fluffy, sugar-coated makings of a film by Richard Curtis. I live in the real world, not the one inhabited by members of the London 'smart set' who have never set foot in a council housing estate, yet feel qualified to pontificate on all sorts of social and economic issues etc. ......... "

You attacked me for not having the credentials to 'pontificate' on all sorts of social and economic issues because I am a [sic] member of the London smart set and have never set foot in a council housing estate, whereas you live in the real world.

How interesting it is to learn then, that I was brought up on a council housing estate whereas you come from a middle class, homeowning background.

Oh the irony. What are we to surmise about our relative qualifications to talk about economic and social issues (by your own terms, of course)?

marklv

Bendix,

I never knew you came from a council estate, in any case does it matter? Whatever your background you are now a fully paid up member of the 'chattering classes'. It doesn't matter that your grandfather may have been a miner or whatever. The fact is that you have left all that behind, and indeed, one may argue, repudiated that background. Possibly this is one reason why you are so keen to attack socialism in any form; you are keen to show how far you have gone since your early days.

marklv

bendix wrote: »

marklv in 'Hitler was the innocent party' shock.

who would have thought it?

Here we go again. Misrepresenting me, as usual.

I never said Hitler was an innocent party, I said that in 1939 the outbreak of a general European war could have been avoided, and that may well have helped to prepare the west better to resist Hitler in case he turned towards the west. Also, the Jews residing in west European countries would have survived and had more time to seek shelter elsewhere.

marklv

FTBFun wrote: »

Actually both the British and French really didn't want another war after the "War to end all wars" cost so many lives. It was precisely this fear that led to the policy of appeasement for a short time, until there was a eventual declaration of war when Hitler went for another land grab. You seem to be painting late 30s Britain and France as warmongerers which couldn't be further from the truth.

Also Hitler wanted to make France suffer like Germany did after the Treaty of Versailles, so he was interested in taking them on. Britain not so much.

(Godwin's Law really kicked in on this thread didn't it!)

The fact remains that Hitler's main objective was to invade the USSR and destroy the communist state. France may have been a future target, but by no means definite (Hitler kept changing his mind on many issues). And you are assuming that if Hitler had invaded the USSR in 1941 with his western border secure that he would have walked to certain victory - I doubt this very much. The Russians managed to win the war against the huge majority of the German armed forces with with only limited help from the west. Over 20 million Soviet citizens were involved in the military at some stage in the war and the Soviet army was at roughly 11 million strong throughout the whole of the four year struggle. The Germans never had a hope of winning - it was only through their superior fighting ability and doggedness that they managed to push the Russians back in 1941 and 1942. Without western help it would have taken longer for the Russians to win, but they would still have done so.

ninky_2

marklv wrote: »

Bendix,

I never knew you came from a council estate, in any case does it matter? Whatever your background you are now a fully paid up member of the 'chattering classes'. It doesn't matter that your grandfather may have been a miner or whatever. The fact is that you have left all that behind, and indeed, one may argue, repudiated that background. Possibly this is one reason why you are so keen to attack socialism in any form; you are keen to show how far you have gone since your early days.

:rotfl:i would say it probably doesn't matter. but it was you who suggested it does. only now -exposed for not practicing what you preach - do you say it doesn't matter! in fact, it now becomes a reason for being rightwing!

but i fear any attempt at logical reasoning may be wasted here.

bendix

ninky wrote: »

:rotfl:i would say it probably doesn't matter. but it was you who suggested it does. only now -exposed for not practicing what you preach - do you say it doesn't matter! in fact, it now becomes a reason for being rightwing!

but i fear any attempt at logical reasoning may be wasted here.

LOL. I can't win, can I?

And to address marklv's point, far from repudiating my background, I embrace it. To me it is the single most formative influence on my political views today.

Curiously, of course, the essense of working class thinking is intrinsically conservative. Self-advancement, working for rewards etc. There is nothing working class about socialism; on the contrary, it is a philosophical creed founded by essentially middle class thinkers who then 'used' the working classes to further their own ends.

Marx - a bourgeoise intellectual. Engels - a factory owner. Lenin - another upper middle class intellectual. Mao - university educated. Pol Pot - sent to Paris to finish his education.

Need I go on?

ninky_2

bendix wrote: »

There is nothing working class about socialism; on the contrary, it is a philosophical creed founded by essentially middle class thinkers who then 'used' the working classes to further their own ends.

Marx - a bourgeoise intellectual. Engels - a factory owner. Lenin - another upper middle class intellectual. Mao - university educated. Pol Pot - sent to Paris to finish his education.

Need I go on?

which philosophical creeds have been founded by working class thinkers?

people come to their political ideologies for a variety of reasons. many working class people have come to socialism because they feel exploited by capitalism.

personally i don't see myself as a marxist - historical determinism is too close to religious faith for comfort - but i am skeptical about the merits and impact of capitalism.

bendix

ninky wrote: »

which philosophical creeds have been founded by working class thinkers?

.

Bendixism, for starters.

carolt

marklv wrote: »

Here we go again. Misrepresenting me, as usual.

I never said Hitler was an innocent party, I said that in 1939 the outbreak of a general European war could have been avoided, and that may well have helped to prepare the west better to resist Hitler in case he turned towards the west. Also, the Jews residing in west European countries would have survived and had more time to seek shelter elsewhere.

What a load of nonsense.