Useless jobs still being recruited for in the civil service

Malcolm.

marklv wrote: »

Well, if they had fought the 'Fascist land grab' in 1938 when the Germans were much weaker, millions of lives would have been saved and Hitler would have been dead in weeks. Instead they decided on appeasement, only to change their minds a year later. Inconsistency and lack of direction played right into Hitler's hands.

Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler with Czechoslovakia, upon invading Poland the formal treaty they had with the UK was activated, and war declared.

marklv

Malcolm. wrote: »

Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler with Czechoslovakia, upon invading Poland the formal treaty they had with the UK was activated, and war declared.

But Chamberlain offered an alliance with Poland only after Hitler had seized the Czech lands and the German inhabited city of Memel from Lithuania. Why did Chamberlain do this when he knew full well that Hitler's next target was going to be Danzig. Was it worth starting a war over Danzig? The alliance merely made the Poles more instransigent and less willing to back down to the Nazi demands, which were actually not extreme. My opinion is that by 1939 Chamberlain and his cabinet were reisgned to going to war and just needed a pretext. Something made Chamberlain abandon appeasement - nobody really knows what. I doubt if it was the Nazi occupation of Czech territory, as it was generally recognised that the Munich agreement was never going to last long anyway. My guess is that the British establishment had lost patience and just wanted to crush the troublesome Germans once and for all - as simple as that.

Malcolm.

marklv wrote: »

But Chamberlain offered an alliance with Poland only after Hitler had seized the Czech lands and the German inhabited city of Memel from Lithuania. Why did Chamberlain do this when he knew full well that Hitler's next target was going to be Danzig. Was it worth starting a war over Danzig? The alliance merely made the Poles more instransigent and less willing to back down to the Nazi demands, which were actually not extreme. My opinion is that by 1939 Chamberlain and his cabinet were reisgned to going to war and just needed a pretext. Something made Chamberlain abandon appeasement - nobody really knows what. I doubt if it was the Nazi occupation of Czech territory, as it was generally recognised that the Munich agreement was never going to last long anyway. My guess is that the British establishment had lost patience and just wanted to crush the troublesome Germans once and for all - as simple as that.

It's difficult to ascertain what was going through the minds of politicians at the time, but I can't argue with your view on how the events unfolded.

I prefer to think Chamberlain intended the treaty to discourage German invasion of Poland, and that the treaty would never be put to use. However Chamberlain was preparing for war prior to the invasion of Poland. Your guess is plausible.

marklv

AJP Taylor argued that Hitler did not want to start a general European war in 1939, but the hostility of Britain and the intransigence of the Poles angered him into acting rashly, which he was very prone to do, given the right provocation.

bendix

marklv wrote: »

So what's your point? I was born when my parents were already middle aged and had paid off nearly all the mortgage. It doesn't make them well off.

My father drove a Ford Anglia, and then an Escort following that one. Hardly impressive vehicles!

So, to clarify then marklv, you have absolutely no experience of living on a council estate, right?

StevieJ

marklv wrote: »

I doubt if it was the Nazi occupation of Czech territory, as it was generally recognised that the Munich agreement was never going to last long anyway. My guess is that the British establishment had lost patience and just wanted to crush the troublesome Germans once and for all - as simple as that.

Maybe it was this?

The British public first saw the Spitfire at the RAF Hendon air-display on Saturday 27 June 1936. Although full-scale production was supposed to begin immediately, there were numerous problems which could not be overcome for some time and the first production Spitfire, K9787, did not roll off the Woolston, Southampton assembly line until mid-1938

FTBFun

marklv wrote: »

The war wasn't fought to save the Jews. Would the British and French heads of government have risked hundreds of thousands of lives of their own citizens to save the Jews? I doubt it. In that case isolation and economic sanctions would have sufficed as a stick with which to beat the Nazi government. No, the world war was started by the British and French leaders because they were paranoid about German expansionism and did not feel they could hold Hitler to any diplomatic agreement. It was essential a reaction of fear rather than logic. Hitler himself had no interest in the west - his aim was always the east and creating 'living space' there. As for the Jews, enlarging the war by involving the west merely placed more of them at the tender mercies of the SS. The ones in the east were doomed anyway and no western power could do anything to rescue them, for obvious geographical reasons.

Actually both the British and French really didn't want another war after the "War to end all wars" cost so many lives. It was precisely this fear that led to the policy of appeasement for a short time, until there was a eventual declaration of war when Hitler went for another land grab. You seem to be painting late 30s Britain and France as warmongerers which couldn't be further from the truth.

Also Hitler wanted to make France suffer like Germany did after the Treaty of Versailles, so he was interested in taking them on. Britain not so much.

(Godwin's Law really kicked in on this thread didn't it!)

bendix

marklv in 'Hitler was the innocent party' shock.

who would have thought it?

StevieJ

bendix wrote: »

marklv in 'Hitler was the innocent party' shock.

who would have thought it?

I wonder who he votes for :eek:

Andy_L

FTBFun wrote: »

Actually both the British and French really didn't want another war after the "War to end all wars" cost so many lives. It was precisely this fear that led to the policy of appeasement for a short time,

That and that we weren't equipped to fight a war in the mid 30's & needed the time to rearm