Can I drive with expired licence?

bigjl

Well that is hardly the point LUM, or the correct attitude.
If you think about it, your passport has to be renewed every 10 years, this is known because it has an expiry date on it, a driving licence also has an expiry date on it, I think the reason there is no specific mention of not driving after the expiry date is that it is assumed that nobody would be stupid enough to consider that anything that has gone past its expiry date is still valid. Entitlement is a different issue, I am sure the confusion has come from the fact that your entitlement to drive used to coincide with the expiry date, but due to the EU wanting all EU countries to have a plastic photocard licence, that is what we have now.

After all even though the licence is issued by the DVLA it has an EU Flag on it, not a Union Jack.

Just looked at my licence, it doesn't actually refer to the second date as an expiry date though, just uses the phrase Licence Valid From, and Licence Valid To.

The cut and paste was from an in house magazine for DVLA staff, so isn't law, and anybody working for the DVLA probably wouldn't need reminded about Valid from and Valid to dates.

Here is another comparison, your bankcard has a Valid from and Valid to date on it, when it expires you still have your money and it is still your account but you can't use the card for anything, I just don't understand how you can argue against something being stated on it as invalid after a specific date is still valid.

I hope nobody reads this thread and decides to drive after expiry, as you would have to argue your case out in court, after you have got your car from the impound of course after the police impound it due to your licence not being valid at that time.

sarahg1969

Why do you keep going on about passports and now bank cards? It's irrelevant. There is no legislation that states you must renew your passport and bank card. They are an entirely different matter. Forget them.

You have been shown the correct section of the RTA, and now you know what the penalties are, it's clear that expiry of the photograph does not equal driving with no licence.

Lum

Your bank card example is just perfect!

When your card is expired or lost, you can still access your account, you just lose the ability to use that card to do so. You can still walk into a branch with some other form of ID (such as your driving licence ) and withdraw funds, and you can still access your account online, manage it online, transfer funds to other accounts etc.

sarahg1969

http://www.forum.drinkdriving.org/ask-solicitor-free-legal-advice/16142.htm

Looks like Sean Joyce of Stephensons learned something new!

optimus_primera

It never used to be a legal requirement to carry your driving licence with you.
Is that not so any more ??

Yorkie1

optimus_primera wrote: »

It never used to be a legal requirement to carry your driving licence with you.
Is that not so any more ??

The law hasn't changed. In respect of insurance, licence & MOT (where applicable), it's an offence to fail to produce these documents when required to do so i.e. on the spot.

However, there is a defence if you produce them at a nominated police station within 7 days (or as soon as possible thereafter if there's a proper reason for not being able to comply within the 7 days).

In practice, this means that the police wait for at least 7 days before checking if you've produced, and take it from there.

Keith

bigjl wrote: »

I hope nobody reads this thread and decides to drive after expiry, as you would have to argue your case out in court, after you have got your car from the impound of course after the police impound it due to your licence not being valid at that time.

But when you phone the DVLA for advice, before you speak to someone the recorded message will tell you the expired photocard means nothing and your driving licence is still valid.

bigjl

The simple fact is that the plastic part is your driving licence, the counterpart is just that a counterpart. A passport can only be valid for 10 years due to the photo no longer being an exact likeness. I would suspect that the reason the photocard also lasts for ten years is no coincidence.

The reason I have made mention of bankcards and passports is that they have a valid from date and a valid to date, when your licence is no longer valid then it is no longer valid.

This seems to me to be a completely different situation to the date when you need to have a medical, the reason the old licence used to be valid until you where 70 was purely one of convenience, and since there was no photo on it there was no need to introduce extra cost and the risk of people driving with an expired licence.

There are some people on this forum that think they can use the counterpart to show that their licence is still valid after the photocard expires, the Police Officers I have spoken to regarding this take the view that a licence which is past it's valid to date is no longer valid, it has a validity of ten years for the same reasons as a passport.

I haven't listened to the message on the DVLA phoneline, but after reading about the DVLA losing mail and then denying this in court, then fining people when the DVLA have lost their SORN or V5, I will err on the side of caution and the opinion of the person that would enforce any licence offences.


Just don't post on here about how the Police impounded your car and you have been summonsed to court, I would assume part of the case would be about how ignorance is no defence in law, and also the defense that somebody on MSE with "legal training" said it was OK. I also have "legal training", but it is in the Mental Health Act, still "legal training" though, isn't it.


The appropriate part of that link would be

"I got stopped for speeding in Feb 2010 and my licence had expired in Sept 2009 (As far as I can remember I never received a letter asking me to update my photo).

A couple of days ago I received a summons for:

1. Drove a motor vehicle otherwise in accordance with a licence authorising you to drive a motor vehicle of that class. Contrary to section 87 (1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988. (offence carries penalty points)."

Just because this person was lucky enough to have a discontinuance doesn't mean everybody will get one, as it hasn't gone to court and there is no case law to use as a defence.

The other poster, a solicitor I think, states

"I disagree. I think that you have committed an offence and are guilty of an offence under S.87(1) of the RTA 1988 as alleged on the summons, on the basis your licence has expired. Having said that, in these circumstances, you are quite right, it is non endorseable because you were otherwise entitled to hold a licence.

Renew your licence immediately, then send a copy of the new lience to the CPS and invite them to discontinue, citing the code for Crown Prosecutors and the interests of justice and public interests tests that they must apply. "

Which backs up what I have stated, but the most probable reason for the discontinuance was that they where going to secure a conviction on the speeding offence, also the fact that he immediately renwed his licence would in some way mitigate his error.

I would strongly suspect that if they only had you on an expired photocard driving licence then they would be less likely to discontinue proceedings.

But from what this solicitor has posted then it would appear that he, or she, is in agreement with my opinion.

I wouldn't trust what the DVLA say to me in an Email, as this person is also fallible, and the summons was actually issued.

By not renewing you may "technically" be in the clear, but you still commit other offences, what do you think your Insurance co would say if an expired photocard popped up after you had been involved in a serious accident?

If for example an insurance was to take the view that an expired photocard invalidates your policy due to non compliance to the T&C where would that leave you, personally I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

vaio

I’m pretty sure there are no circumstances under which an insurance company could reject a claim because your photo-card has expired.

I also think the rest of your post is nonsense but as you don’t seem able to differentiate between internal company rules and the law of the land and seem to want to ignore what the RTA and DVLA actually say about the matter I don’t see me being able to convince you any time soon.

bigjl

Well if you think that an Insurance Co won't take any opportunity to reduce their liability then good luck with that, how is it living in Nirvana?


You also don't seem to understand that it is nothing to do with internal company rules, there was more information on the letter sent to stations, but if you think the correct course of action is to not renew because you "think" you are in the clear then please post the results from when you don't renew your Photocard Licence, as you think it is not important.

I, on the other hand will be renewing it when it needs to be, not just because we have been advised to, or told to. But because when a board member gets in trouble for doing what some say is perfectly legal, using the get out clause that their licence doesn't run out till they are 70, when in fact it now means that their licence is only valid for 10 years, but their medical entitlements is the same as before. All the people that have posted up on here will be strangely silent, and in fact all will probably renew their photocard licence as advised by me and others.

I haven't looked up or researched this, but don't you think that having an expired licence will cause the driver to be guilty of driving not in accordance with a licence, which will also invalidate the same driver to be charged with driving whilst uninsured, as if you drive not in accordance then you invalidate your Insurance.

Remember that the person enforcing this will be a Police Officer, not a board member of MSE, and I have asked several Police Officers and they all think the way I do, in fact I wasn't sure till I asked them, but as they will nick whoever does it, then I will go with them on this.