Can I drive with expired licence?

bigjl

sarahg1969 wrote: »

I am legally trained, yes. However, the RTA and the DVLA explanation are both clear to anyone who cares to read them.

As far as I can see, the following is not open to any other interpretation:

Date of licence issue, photo expiry, issuing authority (4)
The date shown in 4a is the date the photo is valid from. 4b shows either the date the photo expires (driving entitlement is valid until 70th Birthday) or the date entitlement expires (medically restricted and over 70 licences). The authority that issued the licence is shown in 4c ie DVLA.

Your employers' stance is over and above that which is requierd by law, simply to cover themselves, as someone else has said above. Just because your employers add extra terms to your contract of employment does not mean that they are embedded in legislation.

You can say that it isn't open to any other interpretation, but the fact of the matter is you need both parts to form a valid driving licence, if you lose your photocard you are required to get another, you are still able to drive due to the photocard being in date.

If you have an expired photocard then the view i would take is that not ensuring both parts are valid would invalidate the licence, simply through non compliance with the licencing regulations that state you must renew the photocard every ten years.

This was discussed years ago, can't remember the name of the program, I think it was Panorama or similar. The point being that it was a ticking time bomb because people that assume that their licence will last till they are 70 whereas the photocard requires renewing every ten years.

Going by some of the posts on here they were 100% correct.

I have read the Act and the Dvla website, but as my licence hasn't expired I haven't been able to read the small print in the renewal pack.

Though on speaking to a few coppers they seem to be of the opinion that when the photocard expires, then the licence also fails to be valid till the photocard is renewed.

I think what is causing confusing people is the entitlement to drive till you are 70 without a medical. You still have the right to drive till you are 70 before a medical, but the expiry of your licence is something completely different.

To elaborate, you are a UK citizen till you die or apply for another nationality, but when your passport expires then youcan't travel, you are still entitled to all the advantages and legal protection that being a UK citizen affords, but your passport has expired so the right to travel outside of the UK is also stopped, till you renew your passport.

Arguing that you are entitled to drive till you are 70 is approaching the problem from the wrong perspective. The issue isn't whether you have the legal entitlement to drive, but rather that you have a valid licence to drive.

When you get a ban from driving you are still entitled to drive till you are 70, but only after you reapply for your licence, even if your ban has ended you are still not allowed to drive till you have renewed your licence.

This isn't an issue of entitlement it is an issue of licencing.

bigjl

sarahg1969 wrote: »

You are assuming, bigjl, that the in-house lawyers are au fait with the RTA and have considered it at all. The likelihood is that they have not, and they they just wish to cover themselves, just in case.

Well the in house lawyers also fight our cases when it comes to NIPs, they are employed to legally represent the Trust, and when your Trust is responsible for transporting patients and driving to 999 calls, then I would assume that they areau fait with the RTA.

Though we also have a firm of Barristers on the payroll for any other legal assistance that the Trust needs, I can't remember the name of the firm but they are one of the biggies, not just on the London legal scene, but worldwide, with a culture of litigation and compensation do you really think that an NHS Trust which is part of one of the largest employers in the world would employ trainees or people just out of law school, no they employ the best because they have the money to do so.

What is the legal definition of expired, surely if it was just a requirement for the photo to be renewed without affecting validity then the date would refer to something like a suggested photograph renewal period rather than stating an defined expiry date.

Surely you are also required at any time to be able to produce a valid driving licence for inspection by a Police Officer, if the photocard has reached its expiry date then you are unable to so, you can produce one, just not a valid one, as it has passed its expiry date.

Hintza

bigjl wrote: »

Oh, my god, think of all the people that will die because a dyslexic mispelled a word, thats it I'm off to kill myself.

No wait a minute, why don't you get a life.

You then go on to suggest that my post was immature.

May I suggest your reaction in the quote above smacks of pot calling the kettle black?

Lum

bigjl wrote: »

Since when is it wrong to take early, prudent precautions.

There is nothing wrong with this, it's entirely sensible.

However we're not discussing whether the OP should renew his licence in advance or not, nor are we discussing whether or not he can drive for your employer. He has already let his licence expire and we are discussing whether he is still entitled to drive a private car on his own personal business.

You can be fined for not renewing your photocard in time, however it does not remove your entitlement to drive.


Edit as new posts have appeared: It may well be that an expired photo renders the licence invalid, however the licence is merely proof of your entitlement to drive. Your actual entitlement is stored on a database somewhere back at the DVLA. If you need to prove your entitlement and you have an expired photocard then you are stuffed and had better order a new one, just the same as you would if it turned out you had lost your licence.

Gordon_Hose

Lum wrote: »

You can be fined for not renewing your photocard in time, however it does not remove your entitlement to drive.

Spot on :T

bigjl

Actually after looking at my licence closer, the paper part is a "Counterpart Driving Licence", it goes on to state that both parts must be kept together and produced when required, be a bit awkward if the photocard has expired, don't you think.

If you look at the website "The photocard driving licence explained" it doesn't show or mention the Counterpart licence in any way, probably because it is only a counterpart, not the actual driving licence, with ref to INF45/1

"Counterpart
[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]Your new licence is accompanied by a paper counterpart. The paper counterpart will contain your provisional driving entitlements, driving offences and other relevant information. Please see [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]INS57P [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]for more details."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]So not a licence only a counterpart, the actual driving licence is actually the plastic photocard. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]Here is an article taken from a DVLToday Issue 33 August 2007, just a cut and paste, not a link.[/FONT][/FONT]

Did you know that all photocard driving licences need to
be renewed every 10 years? The photograph on the
licence is only valid for 10 years and hence the driving
licence needs to be renewed accordingly.

Next year you may start to encounter
drivers with expired photographs on
their driving licences or indeed you
may be liable to renew the photo on
your own driving licence.
When a photocard licence is due
for renewal the licence holder must
apply to the DVLA, with an up-to-date
photograph and request that their
licence is renewed.
The first photos on photocard driving
licences will expire in July 2008.
The licence holder must renew their
licence before their current licence
expires. Failure to do so may result
in a fine of up to £1000.
Following July 2008 you may start
to encounter drivers with expired
photographs on their photocard
driving licences and therefore you
need to think about the implications.
You need to consider what this means
to you or your organisation,
for example,

• Will your employment terms
& conditions be affected?

• What about compliance with
your insurance policies?

• What will happen if you need
to drive abroad?
For those of you whose customers are
licence holders will you take the risk of
accepting expired photocard licences
from customers?

• Can you confirm that the licence
holders details are accurate?

• Can you confirm that their
entitlement to drive is still
in place?
The licence holder must apply to the
DVLA and request that their licence
is renewed. In order to do so the
licence holder must surrender their
existing licence and send it with the
supporting information (including
an up-to-date photograph). In order
to raise awareness the DVLA will
prompt drivers with a reminder that
their photo is due to expire. Anyone
can check when their photo is due to
expire as the expiry date is printed on
the front of the photocard licence at
item 4b.
The DVLA will start to issue reminders
in May 2008 for licences which are
due to expire in July 2008 onwards.
After that date any licence holder
whose licence is due for renewal must
ensure that they renew their licence
before it expires.
Photocards were first introduced in the
UK as part of the 2nd EU Directive.
This introduced the requirement that
all UK driving licences should be in
photocard format. The first photocard
driving licences were issued by DVLA
in July 1998. Legislation states that
photos on the licence are valid for
10 years. Therefore, the first photos
on photocard driving licences will start
to expire in July 2008.
Drivers who do not comply may have
committed an offence under section
99(5) of the Road Traffic Act 1988
non-surrender of licence – section
99(2A) and are eligible to face a
penalty (maximum £1,000 fine) for
not surrendering their licence.
Over the coming months the DVLA
will embark on consultations and
communications aimed at raising
awareness of the photo expiry and
its consequences. We welcome
your support and feedback in
communicating this important
message and reducing any disruption

to drivers and business alike. DVL TODAY
[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]Again, feel free to drive with an expired photocard licence.
[/FONT][/FONT]

bigjl

Hintza wrote: »

You then go on to suggest that my post was immature.

May I suggest your reaction in the quote above smacks of pot calling the kettle black?

No actually your scathing comment made me consider such drastic action, but luckily I reconsidered.


Actually no, I didn't suggest you where immature, I said you where.

Valli

Hintza wrote: »

Driving LICENCE NOT LICENSE

We aren't the 51st State just yet. :mad:

s'not an Americanisation

Licence is the NOUN
License is the VERB

and a really common error (hardly surpisingly)

(the 'rule' - 'ce' for the noun and 'se' for the verb also applies to advice and advise; practice and practise. I only learned this a couple of years ago!)

sarahg1969

There you go, bigjl, you've confirmed the position.

If you do not renew your photograph (photograph, not photo licence), the offence may be non-surrender of the licence, not driving without one. The only penalty is a fine of up to £1,000. Not the usual penalties for driving without a licence. No ban, no points.

Lum

And that penalty is payable regardless of whether you actually drive or not.

So may as well carry on driving.