Is wanting a large family so bad?

kafkathecat

We can all produce facts to support our opinions but it won't change what anyone here believes. Even if we could grow food on every inch of available land (wiping out entire species habitats in the process) sea levels are still rising and the oil is still running out, although I'm sure someone somewhere has read a book that says it isn't. The way I look at it is if I'm wrong it isn't really a problem but if the optimists are wrong the future for all our children is too awful to contemplate.
At the end of the day a couple more children won't make that much difference here or there in the whole population debate but when we all make those decisions it becomes a very big problem.

ailuro2

Ignoring the overpopulation debate as you no doubt will ( well you've 4 already, so it's not high on the list of priorities for you...)

You OWE £6K but have £4.5K in savings... can I ask why you've not paid off the debts yet?

Is that a good example to set to the kids you have already?

It sounds like you've only recently seen financial sense and got your acts together, I'd wait till you were debt free and more stable before rushing in and popping out another two. How do you know another two will be enough? Will you keep going until menopause and the added risk to the babies (and your own health) that comes from being an older mother?

ceridwen

kafkathecat wrote: »

It isn't a myth or do you also think climate change is a myth? And if you want to talk about over consumption as a first world country we over consume and every single child we have adds to that. People will believe what they want to believe but I wouldn't have another child now.

A very true phrase - ie the one that people will believe what they want to believe.

I was wondering yesterday whether I just "waste my breath" on threads like this - because those who want to have more than 2 children will simply blind themselves to the facts anyway. They don't want to see them - so they will simply either argue that we are wrong or just shut their eyes totally.The most likely scenario is they try and justify having more than 2 children because:
- others have less than that (and blind themselves to the fact that the population needs to come down) or

-say "Ah but MY children will consume less than YOUR children - so I can have more, because we won't be consuming more" and ignore the fact that its not so much what each individual person consumes but how many PEOPLE there are all trying to live on the Planet and anyway they can't possibly answer for how much their children will consume when they grow up

- say "I'm not taking any help from the State - so its my business" and totally ignore the value of the State education they almost certainly ARE taking and the fact that Child Tax Credit, all the various allowances women get on getting pregnant/giving birth, Maternity Pay, etc, etc IS help from the State

It's so often the case that people who don't want to hear will put mental earplugs in, people who don't want to see will put mental blindfolds on. I think there are probably very few people who sit down and make rational decisions about childbearing - whether to/when to/how many and bearing in mind their responsibilities towards the rest of us/the Planet. It does make me despair as to how selfish some people can be if the "greater good" goes against their own personal wishes/interests.

ceridwen

kafkathecat wrote: »

We can all produce facts to support our opinions but it won't change what anyone here believes. Even if we could grow food on every inch of available land (wiping out entire species habitats in the process) sea levels are still rising and the oil is still running out, although I'm sure someone somewhere has read a book that says it isn't. The way I look at it is if I'm wrong it isn't really a problem but if the optimists are wrong the future for all our children is too awful to contemplate.
At the end of the day a couple more children won't make that much difference here or there in the whole population debate but when we all make those decisions it becomes a very big problem.

...and thats the crux of the matter...the one about "when we all make those decisions it becomes a very big problem". One person on their own deciding to do something/anything - then it barely matters WHAT they've decided to do (unless they've got hold of the "nuclear button" box and decide to "press the button"). The problem is the "Imitator Effect" as I call it - that a lot of other people then think "Well - if they can I will..." and someone else looks at them and thinks "Well - if THEY did then I will" and before you know it - theres lots of people performing the same action (in this case - the one of having too many children). All our actions have a knock-on effect - but everyone on the Planet thinks THEY personally are quite unique and special and entitled to do exactly what they want regardless - we can't ALL be unique and special
(oh...except me of course...:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:)

ceridwen

ailuro2 wrote: »

Ignoring the overpopulation debate as you no doubt will ( well you've 4 already, so it's not high on the list of priorities for you...)

You OWE £6K but have £4.5K in savings... can I ask why you've not paid off the debts yet?

Is that a good example to set to the kids you have already?

It sounds like you've only recently seen financial sense and got your acts together, I'd wait till you were debt free and more stable before rushing in and popping out another two. How do you know another two will be enough? Will you keep going until menopause and the added risk to the babies (and your own health) that comes from being an older mother?

Good points.

Another personal point that someone made earlier was that in days gone by older children used to help out with bringing up younger ones. In this day and age it is simply not fair to expect this of them - they have their own lives to lead and are entitled to BE children until they grow up (ie no responsibilities). Responsibilities will come quite soon enough when they grow up:cool:.

Not to mention that probably even quite young children these days are aware that children don't just "happen" - one can use contraception or abortion to prevent any being born. So - if someone is Child No 1 or 2 on the scene and sees No 5, No 6, etc being born and Mum saying "Look after No 6 for me Tracey/Sharon/Wayne will you...." the answer might well be "Why should I? YOU chose to have them....". There is simply no answer to that.

DianneB

I have 5 children, well spread out (oldest 36, youngest 15) so the work load wasn't as great as say having 3 in nappies!! I love having a large family and am now enjoying my grandchildren. I think the saddest thing would be to look back when it's too late and say 'I wish I'd had more'. It's not just about finance it's about love, life and joy.

SusanC_2

ceridwen wrote: »

<puzzled smilie> but Britain is (very) overpopulated. The world as a whole is (very) overpopulated - therefore we need to have the British birthrate lowered and the world as a whole needs a lower birthrate....that way populations can come down (as they need to - drastically).

Hence my saying that replacement rate is 2 children - it is almost exactly two children and if those having children had just 2 children each then the population would come down (as it needs to) because of those who are infertile/choose not to have children/etc.

I won't argue with you as to whether the world is overpopulated enough as we have completely different worldviews and there are enough people arguing over it already. I do wonder though whether the problem (assuming there is one) is the actual raw number of people or the increased wants that individuals have in this day and age. Does the solution have to be reduced population or do we just need to change our outlook?

SusanC_2

ceridwen wrote: »

-say "Ah but MY children will consume less than YOUR children - so I can have more, because we won't be consuming more" and ignore the fact that its not so much what each individual person consumes but how many PEOPLE there are all trying to live on the Planet and anyway they can't possibly answer for how much their children will consume when they grow up

But how you are raised does make a difference to how you are as an adult. Although I am probably more extreme than my parents/siblings at being green/frugal, we were raised to care about the environment and not to waste money or buy into consumerism and none of us are particularly extravagant or wasteful. In contrast my brother's Chinese girlfriend spends more on clothes than I spend on clothes for myself, my husband and my daughter. (In fact one outfit of hers cost more than I think we've probably spent on clothes in five years of marriage.) Obviously there is no guarantee that an individual child is going to be within certain parameters but on average I'm sure there's a general trend based on how one is raised.

ceridwen wrote: »

- say "I'm not taking any help from the State - so its my business" and totally ignore the value of the State education they almost certainly ARE taking and the fact that Child Tax Credit, all the various allowances women get on getting pregnant/giving birth, Maternity Pay, etc, etc IS help from the State

That is the fault of the Welfare State though - not people having children. If we weren't taxed so highly to pay for the welfare state (including state education) then we wouldn't feel the need to claim those benefits we become entitled to. (Although personally since I'm not planning to avail myself of state education and don't go out to work and use state subsidised childcare, I'm probably taking significantly less than most.) It is the system which is at fault here - not the parents.

lemoncheesecake

Thank you for all the varied views on this one. I've found it very interesting.

The overpopulation argument is interesting but not something I feel I have enough knowledge of to comment on. I am attempting to raise my children as environmentally aware as possible and we do recycle, reuse, minimise waste, grow our own veggies etc etc.

I found the one to one time thing interesting as well. My children do have one to one time with each of us but not as a set rule or something I'm overly conscious of because we do things as a family not as small separate units. My view is feeling important and equal in the family unit is the key here.

Some snobbery detected here as well about large families - the Tracey, Wayne, Sharon comment. I don't see anything wrong in expecting older children to do more in the household. Teaching children responsibility and to be caring to kind and supportive of their younger siblings is a great skill and lets not forget they do actually get something back from the younger children so its not all one way. This is hugely different to having older children caring for younger ones and taking on a parenting role although my children are quite close together in age so this doesn't really happen.

We do claim child tax credit and child benefit. My children are and will be state educated. The same as the vast majority of people who have children. Without the benefits we could live on my salary alone but it would be tight.

Not sure I'd like to live in a society where only the very affluent who can afford private education and healthcare and huge mansions should be able to have more than 2 children.

We wouldn't expect a bigger house - we'd have to make do with our 3 bed semi unless we could afford a bigger mortgage which wouldnt happen until we have 2 incomes again, which wont happen if we keep having children! I'm not paying the debt off with the savings because many of our money troubles started with the lack of emergency funds so cfredit cards were used. With the fund in place we can put more into paying off the debts knowing we have a bit of security.

catkins

Becles wrote: »

If you've got the time, patience, love and money to do it, you should go for it regardless of what other people think.

Good job everyone does not have such a selfish attitude.

They certainly don't seem to have the money but of course they will get more child benefit won't they?

I think people are entitled to consider a certain amount of children too many. This country is overpopulated - I don't see how there can be any arguments against that. There is not enough housing, not enough jobs, a lot of schools cannot cope with the number of children, the nhs and hospitals in particular are not coping etc etc etc. People cannot just keep churning out baby after baby.

Also even if they do not claim any other benefits they all get child benefit and this money has to come from somewhere.