Is wanting a large family so bad?

toontron

ceridwen wrote: »

Actually ...no...that argument is fallacious. It totally ignores the necessity for the population of this country and the world as a whole to decrease.

I have had this situation in my own family - I chose to have no children and my brother & his wife discussed increasing their family from 2 children to 3 or 4 for a while. They eventually decided to stick with 2. I do remember thinking at the time "What gave you the right to decide that since ceridwen has not had any children we can have the two she could have had - as well as OUR 2?" I certainly felt "I didnt give you permission to have 2 more children on my behalf - to make up for the 2 I could have had but chose not to". To me - if they had had MY 2 children, as well as their OWN 2 children - then my personal feeling of satisfaction/achievement that I had "helped out" a bit by doing a tiny bit to decrease the worlds population would have been totally squashed by them negating my "good deed". I know...I know...that I didnt want children for my own reasons - but I DO take satisfaction that I have helped improve the world a tiny tiny little bit by "doing my bit" to help decrease the population and I would have felt they had "robbed me" of the satisfaction/pride I take in that if they had had MY 2 children I could have had without so much as "by your leave - is it okay if we have yours as well?"

Fortunately my brother and his wife thought it through enough to realise that their circumstances were simply not conducive to them having any more children - so they didnt in the end.

This has to be the most wonderfully barking mad post ever!:rotfl:

*max*

I didn't know the Malthusian idea was still alive and kicking, but apparently it is! Wow.
You "no more than 2" people better read up.
It didn't work then (despite some very unethical attenpts), it's not gonna work now.

toontron

*max* wrote: »

I didn't know the Malthusian idea was still alive and kicking, but apparently it is! Wow.
You "no more than 2" people better read up.
It didn't work then (despite some very unethical attenpts), it's not gonna work now.

Well said, but you do realise that your post is going to fly over a lot of people's heads?:rotfl:

kafkathecat

The population of the world has doubled in the last 50 years. That is 3 billion more people. To me, this is simply not sustainable and to dismiss this argument as Malthusian is insulting. New Scientist has a series of articles from people with a variety of views on the issue but you have to be a subscriber to read them unfortunately. Even the scientists can't agree. We all have to do what we think is best.

ceridwen

galvanizersbaby wrote: »

Ceridwen I have seen you post some bizarre thoughts on this matter on a variety of threads but this is on a whole different level!
Why on earth would you think that your brother having more than 2 children would be anything to do with you? - why would it be the 2 children you could have had? - why on earth would he have to ask your permission to have his own children on your behalf even if he had decided to add to his family?

If you had taken the trouble to read/think about my post properly - rather than going straight off into "Its my RIGHT to have more than 2 children" thinking - then you would realise that I was not saying specifically that it was my brother/wife personally that would have specifically had the 2 children I could have had - but people generally who want large families keep on quoting that its okay for THEM personally to have more than 2 children because people like myself have less than 2 (ie the way they keep quoting that Britains birthrate is 1.8 children per couple - so its okay for them to have more because our population isnt increasing makes it quite plain that they are excusing having more than 2 children by telling themselves that its okay to do so BECAUSE there are people like myself having less than 2 - but they havent stopped to consider what WE feel about someone else just plain TAKING the 2 "replacement children vacancies" in effect without stopping to think about what our feelings are about someone having "taken our place" in this respect IYSWIM). IF you had taken the trouble to read/think about my post properly - then you would realise I was quoting the person nearest to hand to myself - as a very "In your face" example that I would have been able to see personally. I know there are plenty of selfish people out there unfortunately - but it would really "rub salt into the wound" to see that one of them was in my own family.

Thats about as clearly as I can explain it - if people don't understand what I am saying after that then its because they dont WANT to understand what I am saying - because it goes against their wish to have more than 2.:rotfl:

I dont actually understand how people can translate a birthrate of 1.8 children in Britain (if that is the case) as equalling their conclusion that "Its okay for those having children to have more then..." - and studiously ignore the fact that our population is still increasing (via immigration) - so we have to factor in those extra people as extra stomachs to be fed, extra bodies that need a place to live, etc.

EDIT: For future reference - please note you arent doing yourself any favours by resorting to "ceridwen is a nasty/xxx/xxx (whatever nasty word I can think of) person - now what other personal ridicule statements can I come up with?" posts. Personal ridicule could be said to be the sign of someone who knows they've lost the argument - so just resorts to throwing nasty personal comments instead....

Imp

ceridwen wrote: »

It is simply not adequate to come up with this as a fact - and provide no proof at all as to whether this is actually the case.

Says the person who is yet to provide any proof that either this country or this planet is or will shortly be over populated, or has even said what over population is.

SusanC_2

ceridwen wrote: »

It is simply not adequate to come up with this as a fact - and provide no proof at all as to whether this is actually the case.

Sorry - I was just on my way to bed so didn't have time to find the link. This is why I used phrases such as "I believe" and "IIRC" rather than just stating it as fact.
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa49740.000/hfa49740_0f.htm

ceridwen

IMP

I have provided this link on various occasions before - including earlier in this thread:D - but here it is AGAIN <sigh>

http://www.optimumpopulation.org/

SusanC_2

ceridwen wrote: »

I would agree with you if by "change our outlook" you meant the outlook that some people have that goes "Its my RIGHT to have as many children as I want (stomp foot)". We ALL want what WE want....but that does NOT mean its our right.

By change our outlook, I meant that maybe we need to change our view of what a person "needs" such that the environmental impact of each individual is reduced. From what I can tell the overpopulation theory is that the population will become unsustainable but if each individual has lower requirements then a larger population could surely be sustained.

I do not believe it is a right to have children. I believe children are a blessing from God. (Which is why I said our worldviews are completely different.) I do want more children but I don't know whether I will have any more - for all I know I may never have another child. But since I believe that God is in control of all things my view is very different to the view of most people.

SusanC_2

ceridwen wrote: »

If you had taken the trouble to read/think about my post properly - rather than going straight off into "Its my RIGHT to have more than 2 children" thinking - then you would realise that I was not saying specifically that it was my brother/wife personally that would have specifically had the 2 children I could have had - but people generally who want large families keep on quoting that its okay for THEM personally to have more than 2 children because people like myself have less than 2 (ie the way they keep quoting that Britains birthrate is 1.8 children per couple - so its okay for them to have more because our population isnt increasing makes it quite plain that they are excusing having more than 2 children by telling themselves that its okay to do so BECAUSE there are people like myself having less than 2 - but they havent stopped to consider what WE feel about someone else just plain TAKING the 2 "replacement children vacancies" in effect without stopping to think about what our feelings are about someone having "taken our place" in this respect IYSWIM). IF you had taken the trouble to read/think about my post properly - then you would realise I was quoting the person nearest to hand to myself - as a very "In your face" example that I would have been able to see personally. I know there are plenty of selfish people out there unfortunately - but it would really "rub salt into the wound" to see that one of them was in my own family.

Thats about as clearly as I can explain it - if people don't understand what I am saying after that then its because they dont WANT to understand what I am saying - because it goes against their wish to have more than 2.:rotfl:

I dont actually understand how people can translate a birthrate of 1.8 children in Britain (if that is the case) as equalling their conclusion that "Its okay for those having children to have more then..." - and studiously ignore the fact that our population is still increasing (via immigration) - so we have to factor in those extra people as extra stomachs to be fed, extra bodies that need a place to live, etc.

I think I get what your saying about how you find it upsetting that other people are basically counteracting your efforts. The thing is that people on the other "side" to you are not thinking things through on the same basis as you.

As far as I can tell, you think the world is overpopulated there fore nobody should have more than two children (i.e. everyone should contribute the effort of reducing the population) and you are putting in an extra effort by having none. You therefore find it upsetting that other people seem to be actively exacerbating what you see as the problem and even justifying it on the basis that you and others have done your bit so it is unecessary for them to do so.

In fact the people who choose to have more children probably don't believe in overpopulation and are only pointing to the birthrates to reassure people like you that there is no need to worry because even if they have lots of children, the overall birthrate is still low. I very much doubt anyone is specifically choosing to have children because of the low birthrate.

I can understand why you find it so annoying though as you perceive there to be a problem and all these people having lots of children seem to be either ignoring it or saying that they don't care.