Who Pays fine

Fergie76

TheBogsDollocks wrote: »

The law is a defence and the law says the OP need not have paid. Our personal views matter not a jot.

There is a difference between not needing to pay and being ignorant of the rules of the road.

Igottawii!!

TheBogsDollocks wrote: »

The OP must have better morals than me as I would not have paid unless I had been made fully aware by the driving instructor when I commenced lessons that I would be considered liable for any traffic penalty charges. I would then have the choice to accept or go elsewhere.

In my view it is a matter of fact and degree. An experienced driver such as an instructor will be aware that entering a bus lane is a contravention while a novice driver may not. If at no time the novice driver is told that you must not drive in a bus lane and if you do then you pay the penalty then I do not think it morally wrong to turn around and say no I'm not paying.

If you went overdrawn at the bank and the bank charged you £70 for doing so but never actually told you about the possibility of such a charge you would not be happy and in my view this is not much different.

Sorry, I never normally get involved in these type of 'discussions'

Fergie76

TheBogsDollocks wrote: »

The law is a defence and the law says the OP need not have paid. Our personal views matter not a jot.

Also the clue is in the name - BUS lane, so if you are in that lane in a car, common sense would dictate you might be in the wrong lane. If you are not bright enough to work that out yourself, you really have to question whether you should be allowed to drive!

bigturnip

Fergie76 wrote: »

Also the clue is in the name - BUS lane, so if you are in that lane in a car, common sense would dictate you might be in the wrong lane. If you are not bright enough to work that out yourself, you really have to question whether you should be allowed to drive!

There are plenty of examples where you may join a road halfway along a bus lane, so there are no signs or road markings saying 'Bus Lane', just the solid white line separating the two lanes of traffic. If the examiner was taking the driver on a new route or on a new road it is quite conceivable that an inexperienced driver might stray into a bus lane without realising it.

peter_the_piper

Good, big turnip has joined the discussion, that should make it good enough for a few more pages.

TheBogsDollocks

bigturnip wrote: »

There are plenty of examples where you may join a road halfway along a bus lane, so there are no signs or road markings saying 'Bus Lane', just the solid white line separating the two lanes of traffic. If the examiner was taking the driver on a new route or on a new road it is quite conceivable that an inexperienced driver might stray into a bus lane without realising it.

Thank you Big Turnip. Encouraging to see that others can also see that there are shades of grey and all is not black and white.

TheBogsDollocks

Fergie76 wrote: »

Also the clue is in the name - BUS lane, so if you are in that lane in a car, common sense would dictate you might be in the wrong lane. If you are not bright enough to work that out yourself, you really have to question whether you should be allowed to drive!

If we follow what you say then anybody who has received a PCN or FPN for not obeying a traffic sign should not be allowed to drive. Have you never transgressed a traffic sign or speed limit?

TheBogsDollocks

Igottawii!! wrote: »

Sorry, I never normally get involved in these type of 'discussions' but if you are not aware of the rules of the road you are not ready to take your test! (and indeed the OP says they failed because of this)
Also, as an aside, if I commited any offence while driving any vehicle , learner or otherwise, I would expect to be the one to bear the cost of any fine whether the instructor had specifically made mention of the fact or not.

Many have passed their tests and yet fail regularly to follow the rules of the road. What should we do with these drivers? All the guy did was enter a bus lane, not a major incident in the general scheme of things, particularly when you're a nervous novice taking a test. It's certainly not an action that deserves castigation.

I congratulate you on your morals but the OP asked who is legally liable and the answer, like it or not is that the owner is liable. Who is morally liable is a matter of opinion and not a matter of law.

It seems that the OP considered himself morally liable since he paid.

anewman

ginnersinner wrote: »

in the same way as going through a red light or speeding. Would you expect your instructor to cop the three points for you doing 45 in a 30 on your test?

An instructor can easily spot when you are starting to break the speed limit and intuitively know when you have not read the speed limit sign, and step in to tell you to slow down before it gets to the point of breaking the law (bear in mind speedos over-read). In the event of being about to go through a red, an instructor with dual controls could stop the car.

When learning I was always told to drive in a bus lane outside hours of operation, otherwise you would fail the test on lane discipline. My instructor said that if there was a reason for staying out of the bus lane to state this to the examiner so they would hopefully see your point and not fail you. This did happen on the test as a bus was in the bus lane and it was quite a short lane, the examiner just replied "drive as you would ordinarily". I noticed there was someone else doing their test in front of me and they went in the bus lane and I had to let them out. I passed anyway.

bigturnip

anewman wrote: »

An instructor can easily spot when you are starting to break the speed limit and intuitively know when you have not read the speed limit sign, and step in to tell you to slow down before it gets to the point of breaking the law (bear in mind speedos over-read). In the event of being about to go through a red, an instructor with dual controls could stop the car.

When learning I was always told to drive in a bus lane outside hours of operation, otherwise you would fail the test on lane discipline. My instructor said that if there was a reason for staying out of the bus lane to state this to the examiner so they would hopefully see your point and not fail you. This did happen on the test as a bus was in the bus lane and it was quite a short lane, the examiner just replied "drive as you would ordinarily". I noticed there was someone else doing their test in front of me and they went in the bus lane and I had to let them out. I passed anyway.

It does amaze me how most drivers ignore the times in bus lanes and just stay out of them all together, not that I'm complaining because it normally means you can overtake most of the traffic at the lights.