Is WebOS worth the wait?

gjchester

bubblesmoney wrote: »

Edit: the betamax v VHS episode and who won shows that consumers are a strange beast, the technically best device does not always win in the market.

Actually thats not a bad comparison from another point of view

VHS won because JVC licenced it to all comers for a lesser amount than Sony wanted for Betamax licence. There are other reasons, Beta was introduced with a 1hr tape as the limit, completely ignoring people who wanted to record films or football games, and later on the fact economies of scale meant the VHS recorders were cheaper to make and sell but a lot came down to the cost of a licence.

When video recorders were so expensive (think £500 to £1000) the likes of Radio Rentals (remember them!) hired them for a few quid a week, to do that effectivly they chose the cheaper models. VHS recorders were cheaper than Betamax so they were what tended to be bought for the rental market. There was often also a tie in between the rental compnay and the Video recorder company that they usually were under the same parent. Radio Rentals and Fergusun were both part of Thorn, so it was natural they kept the purchasing in house.

Because a large slice of the market for prerecorded videos was down to the VHS systems from rental shops it meant the tape libraries tended to stock VHS not Betamax (and remember also at the time a rental film could cost £100 a copy).

And you can see where this is going. Less betamax recorders meant less tape places stocked Betamax, less places to rent resulted in less people buying / renting Betamax when it needed to be replaced. And so Betamax quietly died out. Not because of technical problems but because you could not get the software (ie video tapes) to watch on it, whereas you could for VHS.

Putting it back in to context here.

WebOS is the Betamax. It's owned by one company HP promoting the brand. Everyone else is behind different formats.

HP will be unlikely to give the OS away to others to build a WebOS device, Android is pretty much free to OEMS. I accept Windows 7 will be a charge but Microsoft will be cutting the price per unit down to gain dominance.

Never underestimate the power of discounts and kickbacks in supplier relationships. They may be illegal but they happen.
Dell have just been in the news down to a multimillion dollar bung from Intel to not use AMD processors.
Apple and Microsoft in the past have been accused of using their market share to effectivly stop the competition. If Microsoft turned round to HP and said

"Well Of course you can sell WebOS devices, we welcome competition. Oh by the way, as your overal %age of machines shipping with Windows this year is falling from 80% to 79% we've noticed you are now in the lower OEM category, and you now need to pay $1 more per Windows Licence on each machine" Perfectly legal if the cost is based on %age of licences shipped with windows Vs overallshipped devices.

You can bet that WebOS would suddely vanish. HP would lose far more on PC's than they would make on WebOS devices. HP is reported to have shipped somewhere around 50/60 million PC's last year. Servers are not incuded in that figure but then they often sold without OS or with a choice of OS, unlike PC's where whatever choice of Windows is preloaded is what you get. A small change such a as a dollar on a licence would hit the bottom line, heck even a 1 cent change could lead to a half million dollars in extra licencing costs to Microsoft. Could HP take that hit? Sure it gets passed on to the end customer, but in the thin profit margins on PC's would it hit sales? Would they take that risk?

Back to what I said earlier, if you get more money from developing an App for IOS4/W7/Android than Webos through number of sales then thats what platform you'll develop for. No matter how easy it is to port any app it will cost money, from the bits needed to do it (SDK / Testing hardware developer/ analysts time) and if the developer believes they'll not see that back they won't do it. Some will but many won't.

And finally to me the killer issue will not be any of these, it's the fact HP will not be able to play to the strengths of the OS by rubbish the others OS, and pointing out why WebOS is so good.

Just like my trip to O2 ( I looked at the Dell streak too, but it seemed too big as a phone), HP won't care which OS you buy as long as it's theirs, and that will be the rub, HP will also be promoting Windows 7 and Android as a platform for tablet devices.

As o2 proved with the Pre and Iphone, having more than one device as the "flagship" product in a range means once is a flagship and the other s sunken wreck. The Pre's not the opnly device like this, I suspect the Dell Streak will suffer and wither too, it's not the iPhone and thats the current top dog.

bubblesmoney

i have both (many) betamax and vhs recorders and LP record versions of those. the betamx do a lot more than 1h. both versions could hold many hours of TV recordings uncompressed and compressed LP formats, i dont recall how many hours but the tapes came in many versions and some could do many hours. we used to buy bulk boxes of blank tapes from whole sale and record off TV broadcast for viewing later as kids. i have loads of videos (and a few vhs and betamax recorders) rotting somewhere in vhs and betamax format. vhs might have been the king here but in some countries betamax was king and rentals used to purely stock betamax movies and hardly used to have a shelf of vhs.

google is mainly interested in advertisements, hence they gave away android for free. they dont care if users use android or apple or windows or what ever so long as people use google products and their revenue keeps coming in. they already have 98% of the search market revenues, the android revenues will be pigeon feed compared to that.

kickbacks and armtwisting works, probably the biggest reason why gameloft is off the android market and think AT&T is not allowing off market android apps to be loaded on their network, since both are major apple partners. but gameloft have HD android games on their website just not on the android market. but AT&T blocks off android market apps so gameloft is blocked and not so curiously the same network is apples partner in usa. even though android product (hummingbird and the coming tegra 2 dual core) GPU performance roundly spank the apples GPU performance, it is strange gameloft keeping things off android market even though they actually have the game on their website and even more strange AT&T locking down non market apps. but since they are important apple partners it does not need much two plus two = five guesses why they make strange decisions such as these.

http://androidandme.com/2010/07/news/the-gameloft-conspiracy-why-are-the-best-android-games-not-found-on-the-android-market/

http://androidandme.com/2010/08/games/gameloft-continues-android-market-boycott-offers-free-hd-games-trials-from-online-store/

same reason why apple (some think) is refusing to advertise songs sold on amazon music downloads, just a matter of time before the screws get tightened on them by law enforcement. see link http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20006019-261.html?!!!!!mncol;txt

almillar

No-one's developing for it? Did you miss when I said there are new apps every day? Angry Birds, a big iPhone app (which apparently started on Nokias) has just been launched, as well as 2 games from UK devs Astraware. The 'shovelware' is around more on the iPhone for the very reasons you state, scumbags just wanting to get money out of people. Palm's devs just want to, you know, put quality apps onto phones!
I'm at a loss to combat the posters here who just repeat the negative hype about a device. Can't you make up your own minds?
It was bad that Pam was stuck with O2, who were still the only place to go for an iPhone, but that's what we were stuck with. If you were in the store to actually take advice in what phone to buy from a salesman, then there's nothing I can do for you! A network not promoting a device, does not make a device bad, or a bad purchase!
The webOS device will support flash, making it capable of playing loads of cross platform games.
The iPad can't access plenty of the internet. Has it died yet?!
iPaqs - I'm not gonna say that HP did well with iPaqs, but you have missed the enormous point that they were PDAs - which vanished! iPaqs would have died anyway. Palm/Handspring just about made the switch to smartphones on time.
I'm quite happy to have the betamax/Atari device. Technically better but not as popular. Thing is, there IS enough room for 4/5 operating systems in the smartphone market. Why does everyone insist that someone has to die?!!

gjchester

almillar wrote: »

No-one's developing for it? Did you miss when I said there are new apps every day? Angry Birds, a big iPhone app (which apparently started on Nokias) has just been launched, as well as 2 games from UK devs Astraware. The 'shovelware' is around more on the iPhone for the very reasons you state, scumbags just wanting to get money out of people. Palm's devs just want to, you know, put quality apps onto phones!

I didn't know about angry birds great game you should get it. How much is it BTW? But 3 games is just not enough to sustain any device.

I know there is shovelware for every platform, but the App store at least stops utter junk.

almillar wrote: »

It was bad that Pam was stuck with O2, who were still the only place to go for an iPhone, but that's what we were stuck with. If you were in the store to actually take advice in what phone to buy from a salesman, then there's nothing I can do for you! A network not promoting a device, does not make a device bad, or a bad purchase!

I don't follow salesmans advice as such, my point was if the people who should be promoting it don't theres no hope for the device however good it is. If the salemand steers you away before you even try it no-one will buy it.

almillar wrote: »

iPaqs - I'm not gonna say that HP did well with iPaqs, but you have missed the enormous point that they were PDAs - which vanished! iPaqs would have died anyway. Palm/Handspring just about made the switch to smartphones on time.

I'm quite happy to have the betamax/Atari device. Technically better but not as popular. Thing is, there IS enough room for 4/5 operating systems in the smartphone market. Why does everyone insist that someone has to die?!!

The first Palm Treo smartphone came out in 2002, the first voice capable iPaq's 2004 both well ahead of the the rest of the industry. What crippled them both was slow data speeds, and the fact phones got smarter, why carry multiple devices. iPaqs were aimed at the business user and really expensive, (you could only get them sim free and unsubsidised for a while) Treo's were at least avaialble to the average consumer.

It's not a case of is there enough room on the market for different device classes, it's will people go for the underdog. Theres an interesting post on the regisater today. http://www.reghardware.com/2010/08/26/apple_vs_rivals/ Acers chairman believes iPads will drop in sales as people prefer something open, he believes Windows7 Slate should prosper, propriety closed systems not so. If the fragmentation of the various different incarnations of Android continues with each maker putting there own skin on it then the W7 will win out.

On the otherhand Isuppi predict Apple will have 74% of the tablet market this year dropping to 60% in 2012. They state the overall experience will be what wins out not tech spec.

ISuppli also say HP is probably the best able to do something similar through sheer size, and vertical integeration, however HP also have to support W7 and Android.

However I think the hardware and software used in WebOS devices is pretty much irrelevent, I just don't believe it will get the marketting and positioning it needs to survive in the marketplace.

bubblesmoney

things move fast in the tech world. google has trademarked the speedpad brand recently, they are working with motorola with ?tegra 2 tablet and also with htc for a google branded tablet supposedly.

samsung already has the brazilian version of the galaxy s capable of receiving terrestrial television. the tablet version has been shown on korean videos and is also capable of TV reception. see videos on loads of tech websites. it looks like a good device. the video covers browsing, tv, typing and other things. although i cant understand korean but it was still useful seeing the video about what the device can do.

think some of them are due for release on black friday??? some important sales day in the usa later this year.

ps: i loved the atari games (some of them) and still have a boatload of them somewhere along with other 'junk'.

Oscar_The_Grouch

bubblesmoney wrote: »

think some of them are due for release on black friday???

Black Friday is the Friday after Thanksgiving (4th Thursday in November). In the USA, it is traditionally thought of as the first shopping day leading up to Christmas. This year, Thanksgiving is 25 November and Black Friday is 26 November.

It's nothing to do with the stock market and 24 October 1929. It's also unconnected with any form of minority awareness campaign, or going into the office wearing your own clothes in a particular colour.

almillar

What's the point in a TV tuner when you can watch whatever you like on iPlayer, Youtube etc.? Seems like a step backwards.
GJ - NOOOO!! That was an example of 2 big publishers putting their first apps onto WebOS. There are far more games/apps that have been added this week. Far more. That's before you consider the homebrew and beta stuff. I've already bought Angry Birds and it was £1.30. Had to to shut the iPhone whingers in my family up! Then i just switched to another task right in the middle of a game just to put the point across but I don't think they wanted to know....
Please separate the networks from the manufacturers. Networks haven't a clue about phones, delay software updates, try to install crapware and branding and charge extra for whatever they can which should be free (hello tethering), and we have Apple to thank for that sortof stopping. I can't believe that someone would go into an O2 store, ask for a Pre, and be told to buy something else. This isn't what happened to you, I know.

gjchester

almillar wrote: »

What's the point in a TV tuner when you can watch whatever you like on iPlayer, Youtube etc.? Seems like a step backwards.

Because streaming uses data and tuner is pretty much free. Given all the networks are stating to set limits on data included in a contract anything that reduces streaming to do something is a good idea.

Actually it's a really nice idea, probably pence to impliment in hardware but gives the tablet some market differentiation. I think thats the key to any tablet, you need a unique reason to get the device, The iPad is really the only thing on the market right now. Come Xmas there are supposed to be the RIM BlackPad, Google's Speedpad and a host of android tablets. It will be a crowded market and if you have something different you'll sell.

almillar wrote: »

I've already bought Angry Birds and it was £1.30. Had to to shut the iPhone whingers in my family up!

Interesting, it's 59p on the iPhone and £2.99 on the iPad. I ask as I've not found any way to see the Palm App store, it looks like you can only get to it via the phone. I wondered what the pricing difference was.

almillar wrote: »

Then i just switched to another task right in the middle of a game just to put the point across but I don't think they wanted to know....

So does the iPhone 4, multitasking in iOS4 works just as well.

almillar wrote: »

Please separate the networks from the manufacturers. Networks haven't a clue about phones, delay software updates, try to install crapware and branding and charge extra for whatever they can which should be free (hello tethering), and we have Apple to thank for that sortof stopping.

Possibly but the majority of these gadgets are sold with a mobile data contract, be it smart phone, netbook (they are often free with a mobile contract) or tablet.

However the consumer doesn't differntiate makers and networks, and Apple has a big had to play in that too. Look at all the grief over the Vodafone / Desire branding, the network and the device are seen as one. Very few people are willing to pay the unlocked unsubsidised price for a phone, if having branding on is the price they will accept it. The only reason the desire stuff kicked off was because it was not there from the start, if it was no-one would have kicked up such a fuss.

almillar wrote: »

I can't believe that someone would go into an O2 store, ask for a Pre, and be told to buy something else. This isn't what happened to you, I know.

Yes and no. I went into an o2 shop before the iPhone 4 launch to look at the Streak and ask about iphone 4. I saw the Pre and whilst I was playing with the streak asked about the Pre, that was when they pointed that the iphone was better than both and I'd be best waiting for iPhone 4.

Look at it from the salesman point of view. The iphone hangs together very well, it's a nice thing to use, I would guess the interface on the iphone sells it over the features and by directing someone to the iPhone they probably get more sales. The sales man doesn't care what he sells as long as he gets a sale.

Also remember this was before the iphone 4 came out, there was not a huge price premium on the iphone3 and the Pre or streak.

bubblesmoney

gjchester has already mentioned the point about the tv reception on a tablet or phone. i would certainly prefer such a device. infact way back in 1990 i had rigged up a portable 4.5" screen black and white TV with arial on our car dashboard and it worked reasonably well where ever there was a terrestrial tv reception. why wouldnt one (passengers) want to watch TV while travelling or parked on long journeys.

i like the FM radio feature instead of streaming music over 3g. i listen to the FM radio on my desire phone while mowing the lawn or while browsing on my phone etc. no data charges to pay for listen to the radio and using shazaam app one can record music off the FM radio too although i have not tried that out yet.... free music 'streaming' and 'recording'. similarly i would prefer a phone with a terrestrial TV tuner on a phone like already present on the brazilian version of the samsung galaxy s and korean videos showing the samsung galaxy s tablet version. would make a great bedroom tv / browsing unit or even for the kitchen.

have also seen the bendable OLED screen recently spotted on videos shown by samsung this should be out soon too. they show it is comparison to standard LCD after bending it the videos still play well even while folded over or rolled or even smashed with a hammer!! see videos online about this.

i would love to have ruggedised smartphones and tablet device especially one waterproof, shockproof and with the bendable oled screen. would be a pretty childproof device and sales would be good with travelling salespeople etc.

the blackberry tablet specs dont sound great as it is just a wifi device. the new MS tablet chips or proposed chips are x86 but dont fit the usual x86 software so will need new software so have an uphill climb to get customers. nokia has gone from symbian to another software meego / moblin etc which has another uphill struggle like the N900 device which is already orphaned.

but i would be wary of buying a device directly marketted by google like the nexus 1 as it has become orphaned so soon after the release and sales have ceased to public and long wait list even for developers to get it and today they have shut the phone helpline too and directing calls to HTC instead for support. so even if google release the htc manufactured google branded tablet i wouldnt buy it but instead probably buy the follow up HTC branded version or the samsung galaxy version probably. which ever device has got higher internal memory and battery times.

btw there is a playstation emulator available on android now and one can play the old playstation games on the 1ghz android phones. just thought would mention this in case anyone is interested.

google has just now launched a new feature as competitor for skype in the usa. this has better features than google voice already available in usa. just a matter of time before it comes to the rest of the world too. you can apparently do skype like features with regular gmail account now in the usa.

almillar

Agree on TV/FM tuners - certainly worth having rather than not worth having, but if either of you have ever tried to get freeview reception (and I hope you aren't suggesting analogue tuners at this point!!) on an indoor aeriel, I think you might see the problem with trying to get reception on a little phone, maybe you could squeeze it on a tablet.
Best to go from the developers' websites to find info on Apps - here's the page for Angry Birds:
http://developer.palm.com/appredirect/?packageid=com.rovio.angrybirds&applicationid=4830
Price difference I'll put down to economies of scale and the fact that it's just launched on WebOS - might get cheaper over time.
Multitasking - STOP RIGHT THERE! Visually, iOS's implementation of multitasking is not as good as WebOS's, and that's my opinion, but underneath all that, iOS has a couple of APIs that developers can use only - THIS IS NOT TRUE MULTITASKING.
I thought that Apple had the biggest part to play in stopping the networks taking over the branding of devices. All the networks wanted the iPhone, and Apple wouldn't let the branding on, at a time when all other manufacturers had pretty much caved. Apple should be thanked for this (shudder!).
bubblesmoney - strangely, it's illegal to have a CRT screen in the front of a vehicle, so you were dodgy with that setup. That law came in before there was such a thing as LCDs.