Is WebOS worth the wait?

StubbornVirus

Had a Palm phone and after many issues regarding the build quality and after 4 replacements i moved away. HP have said that a WebOS tablet will be on its way in the early part of next year and hope to see a better phone out too.

Do any of you think it woiuld be worth the wait or is WebOS a dead duck?

ampletime

Poor old Palm. They made some great phones but the Pre and Pre Plus are a terrible built phone. The OS and UI are very very good but you have to look at the fact that it sold very very few phones thus HP came along and bought them out mainly for their IP and that was about it. HP made some pretty rubbish phones and tried the business market but RIM have that well wrapped up and HP won't have any luck the second time round nor i doubt with the consumer market as far as phones go unless they get the likes of HTC to knock up some phones. The Pre had such bad press and so many returns that once bitten twice shy and i imagine it will take something very special to get the likes of o2 and Vodafone to buy any of their phones, if they do indeed make anymore.

The app store for webos is dire to say the least and it is full of utter rubbish and i can't see anyone with apps that you get on Android or Apple porting over to webos. There just isn't enough market share to warrent the work and cost involved. Ace Insurance stopped giving replacements out a few months ago due to the huge amount of returns. The multi-tasking is brilliant and whenever an iphone users say their phone can multi-task they should look at hoe webos does it.

The Palm brand has been damaged and HP i doubt can do anything to repair it however a webos tablet would be good. As for phones HP have big teams to play against, HTC, Samsung and Apple. In a few weeks we expect to see the likes of the HTC Desire HD out and a HP phone will struggle to get of the starting block.

If they got the Pre right it may of been a different story but in a nutshell, don't bother waiting for a new phone. HTC, Samsung, Apple and RIM have the mobile market between themselves.

gjchester

ampletime wrote: »

Poor old Palm. They made some great phones but the Pre and Pre Plus are a terrible built phone.

Actually I'd say even thats not true.

They made a great start with the Palm Pilot, but then when they moved to phones it went down hill. The Treo's all had build issues to some degree.

Personally (and I've said this before) I think the main problems was pitching the Pre at the same market as the iPhone, same handset cost and same phone plan on o2.

Apple is seen as a premium brand Palm is not.

Back to the question, is it worth waiting for a WebOS tablet.

Given the iPad is out, there are Google Chrome and Android tablets waiting in the wings for Xmas, and even that HP are releasing a budget Windows tablet before a WebOS one that kinda says it all.

HP have a wealth of experinece with tablets, we used them at work for a while, but by concentrating on the Windows 7 one it means the WebOS one will be out after everyone else. It will have to be a seriously better device than all the competition to stand a chance. HP also had a head start in the PDA market with the aquisition of the Compaq iPaq brand but just like palm they didn't translate into phones well and now most people don't carry an organiser they carry a phone, even "non smart" phones have calendering and reminder these days.

WebOS is nice but I just don't see it being so much better than anything else, or as it's HP any cheaper than the far eastern cometition, and I'm thinking Acer, Asus rather than the clone makers out there and I don't see it doing well. Without a "killer app" or a better price point it will just tread water and fail.

bubblesmoney

Loads of the top dogs at palm are falling over trying to jump ship and join rival firms. Loads have already left. It is dead in the water. Security issues won't let any company with sense to approve it for business purposes. Just google security flaws on that os for details. HP bought it for their patents catalogue.

There are some great android tablets on the way with snapdragon chips, some with hummingbird chips and some with dual core chips. And even better dual core tegra 2 chips which will wipe the floor with even the hummingbird chips. All this due for release in. Fourth quarter or the first quarter. So wait if you can a few months. But tech is evolving so fast what's best this week is outdated the next month and with things like webos and windows mobile 7 they get outdated even before their official launch!!!!

almillar

Looks like lots of people have been reading all the copycat tech reports!
I've got a Pre (since UK launch) and have had no issues. I've found it to be an excellent phone which has only got better with the software updates. App Catalog has thousands of apps now, and if you think it's full of crap you want to look at Apple's App Store for 10,000s of crap!
I also love the post about the Android tablets. Mostly talking about the processor inside. The OS is still clunky, no matter how many FPS you get out of the processor!
Anyway, I think OP is looking for a phone. I haven't heard a single person say that WebOS is bad. It's excellent. HP have confirmed that there will be a WebOS tablet in Q1 2011, and that WebOS 2 (we're currently on 1.4.5) will be along at the same time. There is nothing confirmed about phones, but there should be one in 'Autumn' this year.
The iPhone 4 (and some Androids) have raised the bar in several places, which HP/Palm will at least have to match. (I think the Pre caught, and with its software, beat, the iPhone 3G for the record). So it will need to have a higher res screen, voice commands of some sort, and that little extra something. It also needs to have a real keyboard to keep the differentiation from iPhone & some others.
I think it's worth waiting for, and I think some people on here are just repeating negative reports they've heard instead of having actually used the stuff.

ampletime

almillar wrote: »

Looks like lots of people have been reading all the copycat tech reports!
I've got a Pre (since UK launch) and have had no issues. I've found it to be an excellent phone which has only got better with the software updates. App Catalog has thousands of apps now, and if you think it's full of crap you want to look at Apple's App Store for 10,000s of crap!
I also love the post about the Android tablets. Mostly talking about the processor inside. The OS is still clunky, no matter how many FPS you get out of the processor!
Anyway, I think OP is looking for a phone. I haven't heard a single person say that WebOS is bad. It's excellent. HP have confirmed that there will be a WebOS tablet in Q1 2011, and that WebOS 2 (we're currently on 1.4.5) will be along at the same time. There is nothing confirmed about phones, but there should be one in 'Autumn' this year.
The iPhone 4 (and some Androids) have raised the bar in several places, which HP/Palm will at least have to match. (I think the Pre caught, and with its software, beat, the iPhone 3G for the record). So it will need to have a higher res screen, voice commands of some sort, and that little extra something. It also needs to have a real keyboard to keep the differentiation from iPhone & some others.
I think it's worth waiting for, and I think some people on here are just repeating negative reports they've heard instead of having actually used the stuff.

I don't doubt that webos is a top rate OS and the UI is great. The phones that they live in are by far the worst i have ever come across over the past 18 months. They feel cheap, are cheap and have been put together in a rush. The returns on these phones is huge and o2 and Palm denied any real problems. The USB door, the Oreo effect, the screen cracking, keypad issues all helped to put it to rest.

Agreed that Apple has apps that are crap but like Android they also have some very very good ones and Palm have very very few apps that could justify a price being paid or indeed the time to download the free ones.

Looking through the app store i can't figure out why some of them are there and most users of the Pre it seems are more concerned with gaming than they are with a phone and HP won't be getting in the hand held gaming thing anytime soon. Developers are staying well away from webos like it is death. Things are that bad that if you want for example and ebay app you have to buy a knock off. Palms market share is.............in single figures and the hope of getting Blackberry users to join up has been blown away.

The only good thing about the Pre is the OS and its UI the rest is worthless and it will be very very hard for HP to gain anything in the market of phones. The next webos phone will have to have more than a high res screen to compete. It will need to be of sound build, high res screen and thats just to start with. I doubt it will get any more attention than it does now even with a new phone to house webos. The new HTC Desire on its way and the other Android phones will be of good stock something Palm/HP won't be able to compete with.

Most phones you get a hint of when they are coming but the HP/Palm phone if there is one is being kept very very quiet which would lead you to bet there won't be one. The smartphone business has been carved up and there isn't enough to go around for HP/Palm.

bubblesmoney

worth a read http://www.bnet.com/blog/technology-business/goodbye-palm-webos-security-flaw-dooms-acquisition-hopes/3440

http://www.webosroundup.com/2010/08/webos-0day-exploit/

ps: i havent used the webos, but i would hesitate to use it after reading the security issues. all OS's have issues even android, but webos is the only one where eneterprise firms are keeping their fingers out and palm needed a buyout. if it was that great then consumers would be buying it and they would not have needed to be bought out. proof of how crap it was is that they didnt get enough sales to stay afloat and needed a buyout and even after that not sure where they are headed. the topdogs at webos have already jumped ship to google and other firms.

gjchester

almillar wrote: »

App Catalog has thousands of apps now, and if you think it's full of crap you want to look at Apple's App Store for 10,000s of crap!

Possibly but that the point.

If you want to make money from writing apps you write for the biggest audience. If you made 10p an app after all the costs do you write for the platforms with multi millions of users and with a clear support path, or the platform in the ten thousands with no defined future.

almillar wrote: »

I also love the post about the Android tablets. Mostly talking about the processor inside. The OS is still clunky, no matter how many FPS you get out of the processor!

Possibly but it's out there, Google have pledged support and there is a roadmap, HP have gone quiet and theres no clear roadmap at this time.

almillar wrote: »

HP have confirmed that there will be a WebOS tablet in Q1 2011, and that WebOS 2 (we're currently on 1.4.5) will be along at the same time. There is nothing confirmed about phones, but there should be one in 'Autumn' this year.

Too late.

Xmas 2010 will be prime tablet buying time, Q1 2011 is too late, if people wanted one they'd have got one for Xmas. By the time the WebOS one is out early adopters will have one of some sort, and it will be moving to a race to the bottom line for the rest of the buyers.

In a similar way to the marketing of the Pre and the Iphone on O2, I see a problem in the fact HP will have a Windows7 machine on the market already, and they'll effectivly be trying to steal sales from that (as well as other makers) for the WebOS tablet.
If HP want to stay cosy with Microsoft the WebOS tablet will be far less advertised.

almillar wrote: »

The iPhone 4 (and some Androids) have raised the bar in several places, which HP/Palm will at least have to match. (I think the Pre caught, and with its software, beat, the iPhone 3G for the record). So it will need to have a higher res screen, voice commands of some sort, and that little extra something. It also needs to have a real keyboard to keep the differentiation from iPhone & some others.
I think it's worth waiting for, and I think some people on here are just repeating negative reports they've heard instead of having actually used the stuff.

Phones, Meh.
HP have tried to get phones out there into the corporate market based on the iPaq. They failed. If you want a singing and dancing phone you buy a desire, nexus one or iPhone. If you want a business phone you get issued a blackberry by work.

People really don't care about the OS and the hardware. They want the latest phone friends have got or they can show off to mates.
Think Apple and you think of a gracious design that works well.

Think HP or Palm and what? HP I think of printers, Palm the old PDA's. I know HP do far more but they are best known for printers.

The Pre offered nothing substansialy new, but was priced at a premium rate. It may well be a premuim product in terms of the OS but it's not in the customers eyes.

The problem is WebOS has no backing other than HP at the moment. This is no different to Apple but Apple has a proven record. HP's support for PDA's has usually been limited to a few lack lustre apps. Look at http://www.ipaqchoice.com/gb/ the cheapest game is going to cost you £3 upward (depends how many point you buy), compare that to Apples App store and theres no comparison. Apple is cheaper and theres more choice.

The Pre store may be different but at the moment HP has no track record. Unless they get a lot of apps in there fast people will stick with a product they know they can get what they want on, be it an iPad, W7 tablet or an android one.

I don't see how HP can change that, they have a history of tablet PC's in the enterprise enviroment but not home enviroments. Apple have the march on design and simplicity. The cheap chinese clones will hoover up the people who want something cheap and where does that leave HP's WebOS tablet?

almillar

ampletime - you're a prime example of the people that read anything negative and just recycle it, usually missing a few bits along the way. The oreo effect only happened on some of the earliest Pres in the US so doesn't even apply to the UK. I repeat that I bought my Pre on the 1st day it was available in the UK, am a heavy user, and have had NO problems. That's a real experience.
Your bit about apps is just pure negativity, there are apps that Apple and Android have that WebOS doesn't, granted, but I personally have downloaded loads of free, and some paid apps that I find excellent. eBay apps? I have 2 free ones downloaded that I think are great, so that's wrong. What's wrong with users wanting to play games?! There were plenty of games on PalmOS, are plenty on WebOS, and iOS seems to do pretty well as a gaming platform! You're not a sore BB or Android user that's a bit jealous by any chance?
You're betting there's not another WebOS phone on the way?!! I bet there is! By Christmas. How's that? Just because you haven't heard anything about it?!
Palm failed as an indie because it wasn't big enough. It now has HP marketing and R&D cash behind it, so I expect success. Please don't compare the App catalogue to an iPaq store with £3 games, that's just ridiculous, like comparing PS3 game prices to SNES ones. I repeat, there are loads of great free and cheap apps and games for WebOS, and new ones EVERY day.
gjchester - we've been here before haven't we? :-)
Palm have made it EXTREMELY easy to develop for WebOS, and that includes porting stuff over from the iPhone. Devs don't have to spend a lot of time porting stuff over, so that negates the smaller user base.
Again, I think that HP is big enough to support multiple platforms. They've already said that the Win7 tablets will be enterprise only. WebOS is the consumer platform they're going forward with.
The Pre offered plenty new, just not whizz bang specs that fanboys throw around. PROPER, TRANSPARENT multitasking, linking contacts and calendars up in an amazingly slick way, allowing devs to distribute apps as they like, and that hard to define but oh so important 'spec' of actually being easy to use.
I think it's wrong to look at HP's past to predict its future. iPaqs were decent in the day, and got worse, but how much do you blame that on HP, and how much on Microsoft, with that woeful OS of theirs?
Let's all post what phones we currently use too, so we can see everyone's perspective is for their opinions...

gjchester

almillar wrote: »

gjchester - we've been here before haven't we? :-)

Yes and nothing seems to have changed, WebOS seems nice but no-ones developing for it. As there are no new devices there is no development for it at the moment.

almillar wrote: »

Again, I think that HP is big enough to support multiple platforms. They've already said that the Win7 tablets will be enterprise only. WebOS is the consumer platform they're going forward with.

Then it simply won''t sell in great numbers.

There have been many contenders to Windows crown on the desktop, from IBM's OS/2 to the great load of linux variants we have today. None have made any great market impact, why? With the backing of IBM for OS/2 and Walmart selling some Linspire based cheap PC's they should be starting to have some in roads.

Simply because people will not pay to have to buy software again when they change devices, they want to load what they had before back on to a new PC. People also don't like change, they expect to have a similar enviroment to before, and also to not have to relearn items. And finally because they can't play their favourite games on it, EA have done some developing for WebOS but who else is?

In a phone it's no big deal, it's a device you interact with is a frequent but limited way, in a tablet people will want a lot more functionality. It will have to play games, surf the web and a lot more besides. The iPad dioes that and it'a know quantity.

If I was to be spending (at a guess) £500 on a Tablet PC, I'd be picking something I know with a history. Thats not the HP WebOS device.

I also guess given Apple tend to update once a year iPad 2 will be out about the same time, iPad1 was out April this year, Given the amost inevitable slippage by HP a WebOS tablet will be out around the time ipad 2 appears, if it's early will peopel buy it or jsut wait to see what appel get out in IP2?

almillar wrote: »

The Pre offered plenty new, just not whizz bang specs that fanboys throw around. PROPER, TRANSPARENT multitasking, linking contacts and calendars up in an amazingly slick way, allowing devs to distribute apps as they like, and that hard to define but oh so important 'spec' of actually being easy to use.

So what?

In a phone multitalking is nice but not vital. In a tablet it is vital. However iOS4 and Android can do it, maybe not as transaparantly but they multitask well enough.

Devs developing apps is nice, but again a history lesson, remember Atari 2600 and NES Nintendo Consoles. Atari let pretty much anyone develop and release for the console. Quality suffered and there are supposedly many million copies of ET buried in a US landfill.
In comparison Nintendo never let anyone release a title without their checking and approving it is a reasonable good game (it was also a way of controlling games to ensure Nintendo titles got prominance but you can see my point).

Which one is still around now?

The point is devs releasing is one thing if they are quality titles, but a lot of shovelware has been passed off as apps. It does not take may junk apps to put people off a system.

almillar wrote: »

I think it's wrong to look at HP's past to predict its future. iPaqs were decent in the day, and got worse, but how much do you blame that on HP, and how much on Microsoft, with that woeful OS of theirs?
Let's all post what phones we currently use too, so we can see everyone's perspective is for their opinions...

Ipaq went down hill when HP got it. The iPaq was new an innovative under compaq then stalled under HP, most of the upgrades added little more than processor bumps. Compaq alao produced the first ever portable MP3 player, but it never took off.


FWIW I have a iPhone 4. Prior to that I have a SE X1. When I got the iPhone 4 I considered android and to be honest didn''t even bother with the Pre. I asked in the o2 shop they didn't have any and tried steering me to the iphone. I'm on vodafone, if the o2 bloke even derided it to a potential customer pointing me to a different device then waht hope did it have of selling?

bubblesmoney

I use an android phone presently and have had Nokia, motorolas Sony ericsson and some other phones in the past. Also used palm pda, have Windows laptops and computers, gaming devices. I did look into the pre phone but wasn't impressed with the reviews or what I read about it after having owned palm pda. The palm pda which I paid nearly 500£ for a long while ago wasn't great and I don't see it fit to give it away and have dumped it in my garage somewhere.

One of the main reasons I decided against the pre was I felt it wasn't worth the money when I read into reviews and its features and felt there were far better devices around .

Edit: the betamax v VHS episode and who won shows that consumers are a strange beast, the technically best device does not always win in the market.