Printing from a photo cd - is it illegal?

ddoris

Just read this thread and I was unaware of watermarks, low-res cd's and copyright on one's wedding etc. photos/videos !! Never used a pro photographer myself.

What is clear is that they have lost the moral high ground, if they were ever even there, and joined the ranks of used car salesmen, estate agents, politicians, pirates and lawyers.

Freddie_Snowbits

ddoris wrote: »

Just read this thread and I was unaware of watermarks, low-res cd's and copyright on one's wedding etc. photos/videos !! Never used a pro photographer myself.

What is clear is that they have lost the moral high ground, if they were ever even there, and joined the ranks of used car salesmen, estate agents, politicians, pirates and lawyers.

You pay for experience, lighting, professional printing, equipment and overheads.

Then of course, you can get the £40 printer, £2 glossy paper, and the £99 camera, spend hours on photoshop elements and do the same.

Your point is?

Oh no, I got it, You could of course sell you house yourself can’t you, and you catch the bus to go to the barrack room lawyer to do the conveyance for you. Alas when it goes horrible wrong, you complain to your MP!

Cannot see what pirates have to do with it! Then again, you have a choice, like it or lump it.

AnnaV

Using the music analogy, if you paid for musicians at your wedding then that would be a set fee for the performance. However, if you chose to record the music, they would own the copyright and you would have to pay them for its use. Photography is exactly the same.

And of course, as in any agreement that is important to you, it is essential to get it all in writing before the event to ensure everyone is getting what they think they are getting. There are, unfortunately, rogues in most industries, and photography is no different. However if you go to most photography forums I am sure you will find the majority of the advice to new aspiring pros is to have a written contract, insurance, sit down with clients to fully discuss your terms and their expectations.

King_Nothing

At least I know for the future to find a photographer who will actually let you have a copy of the photos you want which aren't a low resed watermarked pile of crap.

Aiadi

Freddie_Snowbits wrote: »

You pay for experience, lighting, professional printing, equipment and overheads.

Great, I can use these to decorate and furnish my house............. were should I put the overheads though?

Oh, and you can keep the pictures.......

Richie-from-the-Boro

Lirin, Freddie_Snowbits, and fitshase.

Please try to stay on subject, we were discussing (1) wedding photography in general, and (2) my opinion in particular that the custom & practices are of wedding commissions are legal & lawful but that does not make them ethical, and (3) that any contract is variable either way, if I'm commissioning it I have every right to ask / demand you change you terms of contract.

In the light of what has already been recorded for all time in the previous threads please discuss your own photographers COP in the paragraph below.

The Copyright Designs and Patent Act 1988 gives the client the right not to have photographs taken for private or domestic purposes issued to the public, exhibited or broadcast without their permission. Therefore, although the photographer owns the copyright in this situation, the client can control how they are used. It obviously makes sense for photographer and client to agree from the outset how the images are to be used to avoid difficulties later on.

Whatever eventually comes out of this thread many thousands more people will now be empowered to avoid unfair business practices by the wedding photography industry who hide behind legislation intended for a different purpose.

Freddie_Snowbits

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

if I'm commissioning it I have every right to ask / demand you change you terms of contract.

Correctamundo!

And I have the right to tell you to go and find someone else

rrf494g

I notice that most photograhers in this thread use the legalities to support their "way of working". It would be more persuasive to my mind if they could use "value for money" as an argument. The moral of this thread to me, is that if you are ever thinking of employing a professional photographer, then think again and consider asking a couple of your friends, who are keen amateurs, to take pictures for you. I did this for my wedding some time ago, and have always valued the fact that the photographs are more than "advertising shots" and were, in fact, a personal record of both the subjects and the photograhers. There is too much "wedding industry", in my view, that preys upon people, and subjects them to pressure to pay rates that are no where near value for money, for the services provided.

Richie-from-the-Boro

King_Nothing wrote: »

At least I know for the future to find a photographer who will actually let you have a copy of the photos you want which aren't a low resed watermarked pile of crap.

This, or at least I started to get involved after #25 where Lirin said in red colour

When I give out CD's I ensure the images are sufficently low-res that anything more than a postcard print will be largely unusable- and they're usually marked as well.

Clearly a case of - I've already got your £2000 - now I'll make sure you pay me more, because I've made sure what I've given you is all but useless to you

I've spent my time taking them, the least I ask is that I get paid the few pounds rather than a printing shop.

Clearly a repeat case of - I've already got your £2000 - now I'll make sure you pay me more, because I've made sure what I've given you is all but useless to you

For family or friends, though, I usually just let them do what they want.

Nice thoughtful Lirin

I retain permissions to use on my website in every occasion.

This I take it is breaking both the rules and the spirit of the '88 ACT

Lirin

Covering photographers under the act-

1 Copyright and copyright works
(1) Copyright is a property right which subsists in accordance with this Part in the following descriptions of work—
(a) original literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works,
(b) sound recordings, films, broadcasts or cable programmes, and
(c) the typographical arrangement of published editions.
(2) In this Part “copyright work” means a work of any of those descriptions in which copyright subsists.
(3) Copyright does not subsist in a work unless the requirements of this Part with respect to qualification for copyright protection are met (see section 153 and the provisions referred to there).
2 Rights subsisting in copyright works

(1) The owner of the copyright in a work of any description has the exclusive right to do the acts specified in Chapter II as the acts restricted by the copyright in a work of that description.
(2) In relation to certain descriptions of copyright work the following rights conferred by Chapter IV (moral rights) subsist in favour of the author, director or commissioner of the work, whether or not he is the owner of the copyright—
(a) section 77 (right to be identified as author or director),
(b) section 80 (right to object to derogatory treatment of work), and
(c) section 85 (right to privacy of certain photographs and films).

Descriptions of work and related provisions

3 Literary, dramatic and musical works


(1) In this Part—

• “literary work” means any work, other than a dramatic or musical work, which is written, spoken or sung, and accordingly includes—

(a) a table or compilation, and

(b) a computer program;

• “dramatic work” includes a work of dance or mime; and
• “musical work” means a work consisting of music, exclusive of any words or action intended to be sung, spoken or performed with the music.

(2) Copyright does not subsist in a literary, dramatic or musical work unless and until it is recorded, in writing or otherwise; and references in this Part to the time at which such a work is made are to the time at which it is so recorded.
(3) It is immaterial for the purposes of subsection (2) whether the work is recorded by or with the permission of the author; and where it is not recorded by the author, nothing in that subsection affects the question whether copyright subsists in the record as distinct from the work recorded.
4 Artistic works

(1) In this Part “artistic work” means—
(a) a graphic work, photograph, sculpture or collage, irrespective of artistic quality,
(b) a work of architecture being a building or a model for a building, or
(c) a work of artistic craftsmanship.

Infringment and copying prevented under the act by anyone other than the creator-

(1) The owner of the copyright in a work has, in accordance with the following provisions of this Chapter, the exclusive right to do the following acts in the United Kingdom—
(a) to copy the work (see section 17);
(b) to issue copies of the work to the public (see section 18);
(c) to perform, show or play the work in public (see section 19);
(d) to broadcast the work or include it in a cable programme service (see section 20);
(e) to make an adaptation of the work or do any of the above in relation to an adaptation (see section 21);
and those acts are referred to in this Part as the “acts restricted by the copyright”.
(2) Copyright in a work is infringed by a person who without the licence of the copyright owner does, or authorises another to do, any of the acts restricted by the copyright.
(3) References in this Part to the doing of an act restricted by the copyright in a work are to the doing of it—
(a) in relation to the work as a whole or any substantial part of it, and
(b) either directly or indirectly;
and it is immaterial whether any intervening acts themselves infringe copyright.
(4) This Chapter has effect subject to—
(a) the provisions of Chapter III (acts permitted in relation to copyright works), and
(b) the provisions of Chapter VII (provisions with respect to copyright licensing).
17 Infringement of copyright by copying

(1) The copying of the work is an act restricted by the copyright in every description of copyright work; and references in this Part to copying and copies shall be construed as follows.
(2) Copying in relation to a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work means reproducing the work in any material form.
This includes storing the work in any medium by electronic means.
(3) In relation to an artistic work copying includes the making of a copy in three dimensions of a two-dimensional work and the making of a copy in two dimensions of a three-dimensional work.
(4) Copying in relation to a film, television broadcast or cable programme includes making a photograph of the whole or any substantial part of any image forming part of the film, broadcast or cable programme.
(5) Copying in relation to the typographical arrangement of a published edition means making a facsimile copy of the arrangement.
(6) Copying in relation to any description of work includes the making of copies which are transient or are incidental to some other use of the work.
18 Infringement by issue of copies to the public

(1) The issue to the public of copies of the work is an act restricted by the copyright in every description of copyright work.
(2) References in this Part to the issue to the public of copies of a work are to the act of putting into circulation copies not previously put into circulation, in the United Kingdom or elsewhere, and not to—
(a) any subsequent distribution, sale, hiring or loan of those copies, or
(b) any subsequent importation of those copies into the United Kingdom;
except that in relation to sound recordings, films and computer programs the restricted act of issuing copies to the public includes any rental of copies to the public.
19 Infringement by performance, showing or playing of work in public

(1) The performance of the work in public is an act restricted by the copyright in a literary, dramatic or musical work.
(2) In this Part “performance”, in relation to a work—
(a) includes delivery in the case of lectures, addresses, speeches and sermons, and
(b) in general, includes any mode of visual or acoustic presentation, including presentation by means of a sound recording, film, broadcast or cable programme of the work.
(3) The playing or showing of the work in public is an act restricted by the copyright in a sound recording, film, broadcast or cable programme.
(4) Where copyright in a work is infringed by its being performed, played or shown in public by means of apparatus for receiving visual images or sounds conveyed by electronic means, the person by whom the visual images or sounds are sent, and in the case of a performance the performers, shall not be regarded as responsible for the infringement.
20 Infringement by broadcasting or inclusion in a cable programme service

The broadcasting of the work or its inclusion in a cable programme service is an act restricted by the copyright in—
(a) a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work,
(b) a sound recording or film, or
(c) a broadcast or cable programme.
21 Infringement by making adaptation or act done in relation to adaptation

(1) The making of an adaptation of the work is an act restricted by the copyright in a literary, dramatic or musical work.
For this purpose an adaptation is made when it is recorded, in writing or otherwise.
(2) The doing of any of the acts specified in sections 17 to 20, or subsection (1) above, in relation to an adaptation of the work is also an act restricted by the copyright in a literary, dramatic or musical work.
For this purpose it is immaterial whether the adaptation has been recorded, in writing or otherwise, at the time the act is done.
(3) In this Part “adaptation”—
(a) in relation to a literary or dramatic work, means—
(i) a translation of the work;
(ii) a version of a dramatic work in which it is converted into a non-dramatic work or, as the case may be, of a non-dramatic work in which it is converted into a dramatic work;
(iii) a version of the work in which the story or action is conveyed wholly or mainly by means of pictures in a form suitable for reproduction in a book, or in a newspaper, magazine or similar periodical;
(b) in relation to a musical work, means an arrangement or transcription of the work.
(4) In relation to a computer program a “translation” includes a version of the program in which it is converted into or out of a computer language or code or into a different computer language or code, otherwise than incidentally in the course of running the program.
(5) No inference shall be drawn from this section as to what does or does not amount to copying a work.

Secondary infringement of copyright

22 Secondary infringement: importing infringing copy

The copyright in a work is infringed by a person who, without the licence of the copyright owner, imports into the United Kingdom, otherwise than for his private and domestic use, an article which is, and which he knows or has reason to believe is, an infringing copy of the work.
23 Secondary infringement: possessing or dealing with infringing copy

The copyright in a work is infringed by a person who, without the licence of the copyright owner—
(a) possesses in the course of a business,
(b) sells or lets for hire, or offers or exposes for sale or hire,
(c) in the course of a business exhibits in public or distributes, or
(d) distributes otherwise than in the course of a business to such an extent as to affect prejudicially the owner of the copyright,
an article which is, and which he knows or has reason to believe is, an infringing copy of the work.
24 Secondary infringement: providing means for making infringing copies

(1) Copyright in a work is infringed by a person who, without the licence of the copyright owner—
(a) makes,
(b) imports into the United Kingdom,
(c) possesses in the course of a business, or
(d) sells or lets for hire, or offers or exposes for sale or hire,
an article specifically designed or adapted for making copies of that work, knowing or having reason to believe that it is to be used to make infringing copies.
(2) Copyright in a work is infringed by a person who without the licence of the copyright owner transmits the work by means of a telecommunications system (otherwise than by broadcasting or inclusion in a cable programme service), knowing or having reason to believe that infringing copies of the work will be made by means of the reception of the transmission in the United Kingdom or elsewhere.
25 Secondary infringement: permitting use of premises for infringing performance

(1) Where the copyright in a literary, dramatic or musical work is infringed by a performance at a place of public entertainment, any person who gave permission for that place to be used for the performance is also liable for the infringement unless when he gave permission he believed on reasonable grounds that the performance would not infringe copyright.
(2) In this section “place of public entertainment” includes premises which are occupied mainly for other purposes but are from time to time made available for hire for the purposes of public entertainment.
26 Secondary infringement: provision of apparatus for infringing performance, &c

(1) Where copyright in a work is infringed by a public performance of the work, or by the playing or showing of the work in public, by means of apparatus for—
(a) playing sound recordings,
(b) showing films, or
(c) receiving visual images or sounds conveyed by electronic means,
the following persons are also liable for the infringement.
(2) A person who supplied the apparatus, or any substantial part of it, is liable for the infringement if when he supplied the apparatus or part—
(a) he knew or had reason to believe that the apparatus was likely to be so used as to infringe copyright, or
(b) in the case of apparatus whose normal use involves a public performance, playing or showing, he did not believe on reasonable grounds that it would not be so used as to infringe copyright.
(3) An occupier of premises who gave permission for the apparatus to be brought onto the premises is liable for the infringement if when he gave permission he knew or had reason to believe that the apparatus was likely to be so used as to infringe copyright.
(4) A person who supplied a copy of a sound recording or film used to infringe copyright is liable for the infringement if when he supplied it he knew or had reason to believe that what he supplied, or a copy made directly or indirectly from it, was likely to be so used as to infringe copyright.

Infringing copies

27 Meaning of “infringing copy”

(1) In this Part “infringing copy”, in relation to a copyright work, shall be construed in accordance with this section.
(2) An article is an infringing copy if its making constituted an infringement of the copyright in the work in question.
(3) An article is also an infringing copy if—
(a) it has been or is proposed to be imported into the United Kingdom, and
(b) its making in the United Kingdom would have constituted an infringement of the copyright in the work in question, or a breach of an exclusive licence agreement relating to that work.
(4) Where in any proceedings the question arises whether an article is an infringing copy and it is shown—
(a) that the article is a copy of the work, and
(b) that copyright subsists in the work or has subsisted at any time,
it shall be presumed until the contrary is proved that the article was made at a time when copyright subsisted in the work.
(5) Nothing in subsection (3) shall be construed as applying to an article which may lawfully be imported into the United Kingdom by virtue of any enforceable Community right within the meaning of section 2(1) of the [1972 c. 68.] European Communities Act 1972.

(6) In this Part “infringing copy” includes a copy falling to be treated as an infringing copy by virtue of any of the following provisions—

• section 32(5) (copies made for purposes of instruction or examination),
• section 35(3) (recordings made by educational establishments for educational purposes),
• section 36(5) (reprographic copying by educational establishments for purposes of instruction),
• section 37(3)(b) (copies made by librarian or archivist in reliance on false declaration),
• section 56(2) (further copies, adaptations, &c. of work in electronic form retained on transfer of principal copy),
• section 63(2) (copies made for purpose of advertising artistic work for sale),
• section 68(4) (copies made for purpose of broadcast or cable programme), or
• any provision of an order under section 141 (statutory licence for certain reprographic copying by educational establishments)

Richie, here's the link to the ACTUAL Act- I suggest you read up.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880048_en_2#pt1-ch1-pb3-l1g9

BTW, you're the one that quoted 2k (for your grand-daughter's photos)- not me. I've never listed my prices on here. £600-£2000 is average pricing for a wedding, a huge variation in pricing depending on the different packages/options available.

Seriously- you have no clue. The author is the owner of the work, and the owner is the creator unless the rights are sold, and copyright resides with them, no-one else. Go back to whoever took the photos of your grandchildren and argue with them. Photography has always been an honourable profession, and does have rogues- same as any other. If you feel you've been hard done by, contact a solicitor or Trading Standards. Even a call to the MPA will help advise you better.

That's all the Act states, nowhere does it give the receiving individual rights. There are separate provisions for that, covered under differing Acts and laws. The 88 Act is a property Act for the creator of a work.