Free solar panel discussion

Jon_Tiffany

Pincher wrote: »

I need decent workers! I just keep getting the sharks who sense desperation and triple the asking price. I treat my regular guys who do the best they can like royalty! They have lunch in my garden, and munch on my water melons. When it's cold, I put on the gas heater and make them filtered coffee and tea. I provide masks when it's dusty work, and rush out to buy spare parts so they don't waste time.

In any case, I am not saying I want to do this, but pointing out potential loopholes that both householders and installers will go through to grab a piece of the freebie.



Regarding the "based on actual generation, as measured by an Ofgem approved meter" :

That is not my understanding of how it works.
I thought it's a fixed amount, and once fixed, you get the same amount for 25 years, regardless of failing PV panels, reduced efficiency, etc.

To read the meter, total up and send out the money based on actual generation sounds like a means tested Winter Fuel Allowance fiasco.

Your understanding is wrong.

The rate at which you are paid is fixed from the installation date, e.g. 41.3p per kWh is you install before April 2012. Your payments are then based on your actual generation as measured by an Ofgem approved meter. E.g. over the year you generate 1000kWh then you get 1000x41.3p paid under the generation tariff.

What will most likely happen is that you get the highest payments in the first few years with the amounts slowly dropping over the 25 years. Given that just about all manufacturers give an 80% output guarentee for 25 years the output shouldn't fall by too much. It is however something you should consider when buying the panels.

Pincher

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

Your understanding is wrong.

The rate at which you are paid is fixed from the installation date, e.g. 41.3p per kWh is you install before April 2012. Your payments are then based on your actual generation as measured by an Ofgem approved meter. E.g. over the year you generate 1000kWh then you get 1000x41.3p paid under the generation tariff.

What will most likely happen is that you get the highest payments in the first few years with the amounts slowly dropping over the 25 years. Given that just about all manufacturers give an 80% output guarentee for 25 years the output shouldn't fall by too much. It is however something you should consider when buying the panels.

Thanks for clearing that up. People have been illustrating the cash flow by £X x 25 years, so I just assumed that was fixed at the outset. So the higher payout initially will help with the breakeven, and then you get shortchanged later on.

Manufacturers may guarantee the part, but you still have to get a scaffold and call an MCS installer to replace it. In the later years, would a non-ASG householder bother? It is getting less and less attractive. With the ASG approach, I think ASG would do a cost/benefit analysis, so they will come and replace if sufficient panels have failed.

So, I'm just waiting for the RHI.

I have strengthened three flat roofs on top of dormer windows with ply and new felt, so plenty of space for solar thermal panels. Probably use one dormer for solar thermal, south facing on A frames.

The other two dormers are reserved for PV panels for when the efficiency goes up. Wouldn't it be hilarious if they found a new technology that gives 50% efficiency, so two panels can collect the same energy as 18 existing silicon panels. If they bring these out by August 2011, I would burst my belly laughing.

So, just to get the boffins started, what about:

1. Quantum heat pump, based on the Maxwell's demon idea? Some kind of monostable oscillator set up. Top layer/bottom layer interaction on the silicon.

State 1: Top layer transparent, bottom layer receives photon and saturates. On achieving saturation, and cannot receive more energy, drives top layer opaque.

State 2: Top layer opaque, allowing energy state decay in bottom layer, due to energy used to keep top layer opaque. On sufficient depletion, the top layer becomes clear again. So we go back to State 1.

Harness the oscillation somehow.

2. Use the piezo electric effect, but at a nano scale. Some kind of photon induced twitching/vibration, whose mechanical energy induces electricity? Elastic nanotubes that goes stiff when photon hit it? a vibrating tube is also a heat pump, creating a thermal differential, which can be used to generate electricity using thermal couples.

3. Ground based solar mirrors, which concentrate sunlight to a focal point high up, on the roof ridge or a pole, for safety's sake. Preferrably with Pilkington self-cleaning glass to reducing cleaning.

Get started, nerds. I want them ready by August 2011.

grahamc2003

May be of interest here. According to the FT, the solar power fits are currently under review. You have to register to read the article, and the FT doesn't want any cutting and pasting of their articles apart from the headline extract below.

• 
  Solar power subsidy under review
  
  The recent mini-boom in solar power could be in jeopardy, as the government has privately indicated that new feed-in tar
  Notes:
  

John_Pierpoint

Those lovely people at the FT seem to allow me to look at most things - perhaps I have "grandfather rights" as I was using their forum years ago on dial-up, when Equitable Life fell over.;)

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/339acf30-c757-11df-aeb1-00144feab49a.html

The article dated 23/9 contains the cryptic comment:
....the current generous subsidies offered under the FITs could be reduced well before 2013.

See if you can sign up to the web site - it is a "newspaper of record".

Another article worth reading is here:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bf98f48c-afae-11df-b45b-00144feabdc0.html

Jon_Tiffany

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

The article dated 23/9 contains the cryptic comment:
....the current generous subsidies offered under the FITs could be reduced well before 2013.

Yes, I spotted that - but the rates (for new installations) are already due to reduce from April 2012, any idea where they got 2013 from?

John_Pierpoint

No - perhaps they want to put a two year limit on the present legislation?!?
By and large the British Government does not tend to default on agreements made under a law of a former administration, when it comes to money - perhaps they could decide that the payments would become taxable?!?

Doc_N

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

Yes, I spotted that - but the rates (for new installations) are already due to reduce from April 2012, any idea where they got 2013 from?

The present rates were due for review in 2013 (that's where the date's from) - it now looks as if that review date could be brought forward. Or, more cynically, the review's already effectively been done.

Jon_Tiffany

Doc_N wrote: »

The present rates were due for review in 2013 (that's where the date's from) - it now looks as if that review date could be brought forward. Or, more cynically, the review's already effectively been done.

Thanks Doc - that makes sense now - I was confusing the date for the reductions with the review.

Jon_Tiffany

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

No - perhaps they want to put a two year limit on the present legislation?!?
By and large the British Government does not tend to default on agreements made under a law of a former administration, when it comes to money - perhaps they could decide that the payments would become taxable?!?

It would't surprise me if they removed the income tax exemption for individuals although I do believe it would be the wrong thing to do. Adding income tax and reducing the rates soon takes it from a good investment to a poor one - and an investment where your money is locked in.

grahamc2003

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

It would't surprise me if they removed the income tax exemption for individuals although I do believe it would be the wrong thing to do. Adding income tax and reducing the rates soon takes it from a good investment to a poor one - and an investment where your money is locked in.

On the other hand, the better the investment for those getting the fits the poorer investment it is for those paying for them.

The 2013 review was originally to fix the fit rates from apr 2013 onwards. If the FT report is true, it looks like the combination of the economic climate together with the the demand for solar fits seemingly running far ahead of supply means the government realises it can reach it's objectives with lower fits, in my opinion.

So I'd expect the first reduction, scheduled for apr 2012 to be brought forward, possibly on the announcement of the implications of the spending review later this month. I doubt they'd lower the fits for those already with them.

Maybe there could be a differential introduced between private householders rate and a company fit rate for those companies getting many fits (probably a popular mover).