Free solar panel discussion

Murielson

Which? says:

‘Free’ solar panels not such a great dealInstalling your own panels could save you £10k

Free solar panel offers are all the rage at the moment, with several companies, including British Gas, offering consumers the opportunity to ‘rent out’ their roofs in exchange for free electricity.

What they’re not so upfront about is that the companies stand to benefit far more from the arrangement than householders.
Big savings

New research by Which? has found consumers could save as much as £10,500 over the next 25 years by buying their own solar photovoltaic (PV) system instead of signing up to a scheme offering ‘free’ solar panels.

The consumer champion found that even in the sunniest far South West of the country, ‘rent-a-roofers’ would only save a maximum of £412 a year off their electricity bill. The company supplying the solar panels, on the other hand, would get £1,313 from the government’s feed-in-tariff (FIT), an incentive scheme that gives money for renewable energy.
Consider a loan

Which? experts calculated that even if consumers took out a Which? Best Rate loan to cover the £19,000 that a solar panel system would cost, they would still be thousands of pounds better off in the long run as they would receive the lucrative FIT income for themselves. If you're considering a personal loan, make sure you consult our reviews of personal loans - we've searched the whole personal loans market to find the cheapest loans deal for you.

Anyone thinking about getting solar PV should make sure you choose an installer certified by the Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS) to qualify for FIT payments. Our recommendations site, Which? Local, has reviews of solar panel installers by Which? members. We've also got a guide to installing solar panels.

Before investing in any kind of renewable energy, you should also make sure your home is as energy efficient as it can be. Which? has free independent advice on installing loft insulation and wall insulation. Also see our reviews of the best - and worst - energy saving lightbulbs.
Solar water heating

Free solar panel offers are for solar PV panels, which generate electricity. In May 2010, Which? investigated the sale of solar hot water systems and found evidence of exaggerated claims and dodgy sales practices.

grahamc2003

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

Your exact words were:

"I frankly find the 'free scheme' very unattractive for almost everybody. aiui, the scheme requires a charge to be made on your property (meaning you need the panel owners permission to sell your house) and that (obviously!) shouldn't be undertaken lightly or without legal advice. And the legal advice would probably cost a fair percentage of the 'free' electricity benefit over the full 25 years."

To me its quite clear that you made a statement about a charge being placed on the property as if it was fact. The truth is that these companies do not put a charge on your property.

Well, obviously you don't seem to be able to follow simple logic at all, so pointless me persuing whether I posted false info or not.

Onto the substance of your post, are you saying that none of these 'free' scheme companies safeguard their position by putting restrictions on your land registry entry which has the effect of them being able to stop you selling your property?

If not, do you think it wise that the home owner gives the 'free' scheme company permission to make those entries without consulting a solicitor?

Gizmosmum_2

It seems a shame that if you consider free solar panels a good idea, some on the forum seem to consider you are less intelligent and less able to make a reasoned decision than those who are against it.

Debate is great, I've picked up loads from lots of different posts on the forum it's a shame some feel the need to be rude about other's opinions.

Incidentally, it is possible to add someone's name to Land Registry without their permission, it's happened to me and left me with a very unpleasant family situation. However, I've seen nothing so far that has indicated that this is the case for any of the free solar panels, seems a bit bizarre to suggest it to me - but it's only my opinion

Jon_Tiffany

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Well, obviously you don't seem to be able to follow simple logic at all, so pointless me persuing whether I posted false info or not.

Onto the substance of your post, are you saying that none of these 'free' scheme companies safeguard their position by putting restrictions on your land registry entry which has the effect of them being able to stop you selling your property?

If not, do you think it wise that the home owner gives the 'free' scheme company permission to make those entries without consulting a solicitor?

A charge on a property is very different to registering a lease.

They safegaurd their position by registering a lease with the land registry, this is NOT a charge on the property.

This does not allow them to stop you from selling your property. The lease will remain in place for the new owner.

This is not about simple logic, you just need to understand the difference between a lease and a charge.

Cardew

My understanding is that the only restriction as far as house sale is concerned is that the new owner is bound by the same conditions as the seller for the remainder of the 25 years; i.e. must retain panels, allow firm access to equipment and not allow trees to shade roof etc etc.

No idea how those restrictions are documented, but presumably it must be added to the deeds so the buyer's solicitor can warn his client of the implications.

geoff2

M4ximillion wrote: »

It certainly has - thats what theyre looking for so I hope I qualify:D

Best of luck, I hope you do too - but having read the Which? opinion above, I remain a proud naysayer. :cool:

grahamc2003

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

This is not about simple logic, you just need to understand the difference between a lease and a charge.

That is a non sequitur. My 'simple logic' comment was about whether I posted false info or not (as you incorrectly asserted I had), not on the general substance of charges or leases etc.

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

This does not allow them to stop you from selling your property. The lease will remain in place for the new owner.
.

I'm pleased you accept that the 'free' scheme companies (or at least some of them) register their interest in your property at the land registry (you give them permission to do so when you sign your contract). When you come to sell, the lease on your property will have to be assigned to the new buyer - the panel owners will not assign the lease if the purchaser doesn't agree to the terms of the lease, and in that case, the sale won't proceed. Hence the panel owners - the one's who can assign the lease - can, and will, prevent you from selling under those conditions. (obviously, if the purchaser wants the panels and the lease, then the lease will be assigned and the sale will proceed - that goes without saying).

I'm sure you agree with the above (don't you?), but somehow don't see that it equates to the panel owners having the power to stop you selling your property. In fact, if they didn't have that power, then it would be pointless registering their interest in the first place.

BTW, I’m not saying this lease/land registry entry is a show stopper at all - just that those thinking of the ‘free’ scheme should be aware that it’ll happen and the implications, and, in my opinion, should seek legal advice for anything to do with alteration to their property deeds (or rather their land registry entry).

Jon_Tiffany

grahamc2003 wrote: »

I'm pleased you accept that the 'free' scheme companies (or at least some of them) register their interest in your property at the land registry (you give them permission to do so when you sign your contract). When you come to sell, the lease on your property will have to be assigned to the new buyer - the panel owners will not assign the lease if the purchaser doesn't agree to the terms of the lease, and in that case, the sale won't proceed. Hence the panel owners - the one's who can assign the lease - can, and will, prevent you from selling under those conditions. (obviously, if the purchaser wants the panels and the lease, then the lease will be assigned and the sale will proceed - that goes without saying).

I'm sure you agree with the above (don't you?), but somehow don't see that it equates to the panel owners having the power to stop you selling your property. In fact, if they didn't have that power, then it would be pointless registering their interest in the first place.

BTW, I’m not saying this lease/land registry entry is a show stopper at all - just that those thinking of the ‘free’ scheme should be aware that it’ll happen and the implications, and, in my opinion, should seek legal advice for anything to do with alteration to their property deeds (or rather their land registry entry).

No, you have still got it wrong.

The panel owners can not stop you from selling your house.

The panel owners will agree a lease with the current home owner. The lease will be registered at the land registry.

If the homeowner decides to sell the the buyers solictor will perform the searches and find details of the lease. You would of course assume that the seller would have told the buyer about the lease before it gets this far.

Now if the buyer decides that they do want to take on the lease then they will of course pull out. Otherwise, they just take on the lease and buy the property. The lease just forms part of the process of buying a house.

You make it sound as though the panel owners can prevent you from selling your house. They can not do this and your posts are misleading by implying that they can.

Back to the original point, you stated that they put a charge on your property. They do not put a charge on your property.

A charge and a lease are two seperate things.

A charge is where a third party has a financial interest in your property, the most common being a mortgage lender. The owners of the panels have no financial stake in your property.

lisyloo

So let's suppose that it does put people off buying you house.
(I'm open minded and have no axe to grind, just thinking it throught).

Do you have ANY option to remove the panels or are you definitely jsut stuck with them.

We don't know whether this will or will not happen, so if you are stuck with them, then this has to be identified as a risk.

Pincher

Actually, what's the hurry? The 41.3p fixed for 25 years FIT for PVs is available for system installed up to 31st March 2012.

Abuse
=====

As far as the government is concerned, they have you down as a working installation, and actively reducing UK carbon emissions. They have no intention of removing you from their statistics, so checking up is shooting themselves in the foot.

Let's see, the FIT is based on estimated output.
So if the sun is permanently behind clouds for the next 25 years they can't claw the money back.

Even on a proper installation, who's to say the panels will not fail one by one? How will the householder know? Do the panels have individual monitoring?

So, if you pick up some faulty PV panels for scrap money, add a few working panels, have an unscrupulous MCS installer re-trained from the double glazing industry slap it on your non-south facing roof and certify it based on PV surface area, who is going to check? Who can prosecute you for using secondhand panels? Who can do you for having very low output?

In two years time, if they do a spot check, say the panels failed outside warranty. Alternatively, since the installing company has disappeared, say that you want to claim on warranty, but the company no longer exists.

They can't check using the amount of electricity exported, because you can just say you used it. So having a faulty inverter doesn't make much difference.

So for £2k investment in 2011, you get £1,300 a year for 24 years.

If this proliferates, guess what will happen?
There will be public outcry, so the government will bring in legislation to make an annual Energy Perfromance Certificate compulsory for solar PV installations, but provided you still have one panel generating a trickle, you will pass. How can they demand that you actually generate 3kW, who has control over sunshine?