Free solar panel discussion

Gizmosmum_2

I want to calculate how much co2 is used to ship panels such as Yingli and phono from China. The calculator I found is suggesting some scary figures - does anyone know where there is a reliable carbon calculator for this sort of thing?

The weight of the panels is in the region of 0.4 tonnes and the kms approx 8,000. Any suggestions?????

Thanks

Ken68

Hi Giz... according to Mike Berners Lee in "The carbon footprint of everything" a typical set of roof panels will cost the environment 3.5 tonnes of CO2, and save over 50 tonnes in lifetime operation.
Lots to spare for shipping.

Gizmosmum_2

Ken68 wrote: »

Hi Giz... according to Mike Berners Lee in "The carbon footprint of everything" a typical set of roof panels will cost the environment 3.5 tonnes of CO2, and save over 50 tonnes in lifetime operation.
Lots to spare for shipping.

Thanks Ken, I assume the 3.5 tonnes is the embodied energy, which is slightly more than I'd anticipated (it's about 2 tonnes for solar thermal - but of course there's loads more panels doh!! So there will be a higher carbon footprint).

The problem is that when I worked out 10kg/tonne/km for the transportation from China it came to 33 tonnes - I must have got the maths wrong.....

I haven't had a day off for a few weeks

Pincher

Assuming a panel will actually keep working for 25 years,
it's a better proposition than a Christmas toy that travelled the same distance and goes into a landfill a year later.

Gizmosmum_2

How true! It certainly makes the argument for using at least European panels even if you don't use British ones.

Tomsmum

We think we're probably eligible for "free" panels but do people want to buy houses with them in situ? What do people think? Personally, I would, but then I'm odd like that!

Steph

Larnsky

@Tomsmum - I would, I am also eligible and as I have raised here previously if there were two identical houses side by side, one with free solar and one without, I'd choose the one with free solar, unless I was specifically going out to find a house where I could put solar on... in which case that would most likely have to be within the next two years as they're likely to reduce the incentive after April 2012.

John_Pierpoint

Gizmosmum wrote: »

Thanks Ken, I assume the 3.5 tonnes is the embodied energy, which is slightly more than I'd anticipated (it's about 2 tonnes for solar thermal - but of course there's loads more panels doh!! So there will be a higher carbon footprint).

The problem is that when I worked out 10kg/tonne/km for the transportation from China it came to 33 tonnes - I must have got the maths wrong.....

I haven't had a day off for a few weeks

We could try starting here:
it takes about 10.5 days
for a 6,800 TEU container ship
loaded in the Middle East to sail
to Tokyo at 25 knots consuming
around 192 tonnes/day of HFO.
If the speed is reduced by three
knots, fuel consumption is
reduced by an estimated 61
tonnes/day. This will in turn add
1.5 days to the voyage hence
giving a net fuel saving of about
434 tonnes including the added
average fuel consumption

What is the average "cube" v "mass" (aka Freight tonne) of a 4kw set of PV panels?
(my guess is that they wouold sink if thrown into water so they are probably charged on mass not volume.)

TEU stands for twenty foot equivalent container probably measuring something like 20' x 8' x 8'6".

We could use a figure of 25 days actually "sailing" to get from China to Felixstowe/Southampton.
(assuming it is not a round the world service but it cannot get through the Suez or Panama canals though it can get through the straits of Malacca)
http://www.lr.org/Images/CS%20Focus5_tcm155-175189.pdf
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SGE6230CH.htm

Like everything in the modern world, there is no simple answer.
How much oil did it take to transport the oil to China?
How much oil will it take to transport the probably empty container (or stuffed with that cardboard you have been assiduously recycling) back to China?

In money terms the fuel cost usually works out as a very small fraction of the cost of the goods. Flaffing about with lorries and bureaucracy at either end on land, costs more that the ocean trip in most cases.

Gizmosmum_2

Thanks John - about 1/33rd of TEU would be one pack of 20 solar panels. I'm sure they hold in the region of 700 because one of my clients was looking at bringing in a container load until they realised just how many there were and how much it was going to cost!

Erik_Hamburger

I have just spent a disproportionate amount of time looking at quotes and Solar PV systems, and I have finally decided how to proceed. The following figures and my experience and conclusions may be of interest:

1. Buy your own system, even if you have to borrow the money. The typical average ROI (Return On Investment) is 10%p.a. Tax free. You can borrow money for 6.5-7.5% so you are still in profit. No IFA or Bank or Building Society can offer you a financial product that gives you a 10% R.O.I. Tax Free- so it is currently one of the best and safest investment opportunities available in the UK. I cannot think of a good reason not to do it!

2. I have had quotes from 4 companies, and two of those quoted for a small (3.5-4Kwh) system and a much larger (just under 8Kwh) system. Quotes ranged from £11,200+VAT to £29,690 incl. Vat. Note VAT is 5% so to compare like-for-like I re-worked those quotes expresses as a price per Kwh capacity and included VAT on all. That made the quotes range from £3,332 to £4,531 per Kwh capacity. So the most expensive one was 36% more expensive than the cheapest one.

3. Large price differences were caused by the quality of the components and the warranty offered on those components. For example panels were either 5 or 10 years, and Inverters were 5,10,15 or even 20 years.

4. The Inverter appears to be the most critical part of the system - therefore it makes sense to go for a reliable brand and not economise on them. They typically break down (allegedly) after 10-12 years so an extended Warranty makes sense. However the cost of such an extended warranty was often more than the (projected) new price in 10 years, when costs are expected to be half and efficiency and reliability is expected to be better...so my conclusion was NOT to buy an extended Warranty and simply replace the Inverter if and when it breaks down.

5. Those who quoted for mono-crystalline panels did this on the basis of their greater reliability and efficiency, despite their higher (some 10%) price. Those who quoted for poly-crystalline panels did this on the basis that they are now almost as good and efficient as mono-crystalline panels but are some 10% cheaper... the Jury is still out on this one!

6. Be aware that if there is a power cut in your area the Solar PV system will NOT 'takeover' - it will switch off automatically. This is something the companies who sell these systems don't really like to tell you. And of course in most households most electricity is used in the early mornings and evenings - when the Solar PV system is producing little or no electricity. So the actual savings in electricity use are quite low - the real money comes from the F.I.T and guaranteed rate of 40+p/Kwh

7. Make sure you only deal with companies under the MGC Scheme - otherwise you will not qualify for the F.I.T.

Good luck!