Free solar panel discussion

daytona600_2

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Interesting video of "New Sun" making 6 mono crystalline panels per day. Wowee.
Surely we have got to the stage where these panels can be made on a continuous production process? This looked like my efforts to brew home made beer and then thinking of a Stella Artois brewery.

I'm still not aware of the comparative advantages of mono/poly/amorphous silicon PV panels.

mono.poly.amorphous
does not matter in the uk as we can only use whats on the
approved mcs list , unlike any other european country that can choose from 1000s of products & suppliers and technologies
vast majority of modules used in domestic to solar parks
globally are mono & poly crystalline
tried and trusted for decades

jellyhead

samba wrote: »

if some of the solar energy that falls on your house is being turned into electricity, then it is no longer doing what it did before, which is heating up your house slightly. So your house is colder, and requires more energy to heat, which in my case means more gas usage.

Would they also cut down on the heat loss through the roof?

Perry525

samba wrote: »

- if some of the solar energy that falls on your house is being turned into electricity, then it is no longer doing what it did before, which is heating up your house slightly. So your house is colder, and requires more energy to heat, which in my case means more gas usage.

===================================
There are times, like yesterday when the temperature in my loft is 44C.
Being well insulated against heat loss in winter, we get no benefit.
This will apply to most homes I would suspect?

AnAnt

Dear All,
This is my first posting on a forum, The excitement!

I've enjoyed reading many posts, so my thanks to many for contributing. For the record I work in the industry for a company that supplies, designs and installs micro-generation and efficient energy systems. So my view is naturally facing that way.

The Feed in tariffs where designed to give a 'rate of return' (how much you would get each year in relation to your investment) of around 8-10% for small scale installers. This rate of return varies from a range of variables; a cheaper installer for example would mean a lower investment so a higher return with the same FiT, an ideally pitched and south facing roof would again improve returns, if you’re paying a higher rate for your electricity (Which I'm sure is unlikely if you’re on MSE )the equivalent saving would result in better rate of return, etc. There are plenty of other variables.

So the idea is you earn 8% from your investment, but as Cardew rightly says in comparison to a bank or bond investment you would no longer have access to your investment for a rainy day as it would be on the roof, perhaps in the rain.

If you have £15,000 and do not need access to the money then investing in solar may well be a good choice. The feed in tariff for Solar PV (once your installation has been registered by an MCS certified installer) is guaranteed for 25 years. So assuming no complications (which are rare enough with solar as there are no moving parts) you'd get back £30k over 25 years. Or your initial investment of £15k plus another £15k.

An equivalent bank rate to beat this would have to earn you £15k over 25 years i.e. £600 per year an interest rate of 4%. But as FiTs are tax free earnings the bank rate would have to be higher, with capital gains at 28% the equivalent taxed bank rate would have to be 5.12% to beat it.

But if you don't have that sort of money available and you have no inclination to install solar on your house in the future then letting a company use your roof to give you free electricity to me could make could sense.

An interesting point is that feed in Tariffs have been in operation in Germany since 1990, they've worked well in putting Germany well ahead of the benchmark for small scale solar. But the rates offered for new installations have gradually dropped. Assuming the same will occur over time here, it's easy to imagine that earlier adopters benefitted from better rates of return than later installations. The flip side of this is that as the technology improves Solar Cells will get cheaper and outputs will improve.

It's also worth thinking about the risk of the FiT being cancelled. Personally I don't believe this will happen, but it's certainly worth considering before an investment.

An interesting side point: At the moment plenty of Solar installations are put in without smart meters. These meters monitor the energy usage in your home like a normal electricity meter, but also monitor any electricity you produce and any extra you feed into the grid. These automatically feed information back to your energy supplier telling them what to bill you and what to pay you. So as I understand if you don't have a smart meter current legislation allows for 50% of the energy produced to be deemed as exported, until smart meters are installed. The Department of Energy and Climate Change plan to have one in all homes by 2020.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Apologies for going on, if you're still reading this I'm impressed :T

Ant

Jon_Tiffany

AnAnt wrote: »

Dear All,
This is my first posting on a forum, The excitement!

I've enjoyed reading many posts, so my thanks to many for contributing. For the record I work in the industry for a company that supplies, designs and installs micro-generation and efficient energy systems. So my view is naturally facing that way.

The Feed in tariffs where designed to give a 'rate of return' (how much you would get each year in relation to your investment) of around 8-10% for small scale installers. This rate of return varies from a range of variables; a cheaper installer for example would mean a lower investment so a higher return with the same FiT, an ideally pitched and south facing roof would again improve returns, if you’re paying a higher rate for your electricity (Which I'm sure is unlikely if you’re on MSE )the equivalent saving would result in better rate of return, etc. There are plenty of other variables.

So the idea is you earn 8% from your investment, but as Cardew rightly says in comparison to a bank or bond investment you would no longer have access to your investment for a rainy day as it would be on the roof, perhaps in the rain.

If you have £15,000 and do not need access to the money then investing in solar may well be a good choice. The feed in tariff for Solar PV (once your installation has been registered by an MCS certified installer) is guaranteed for 25 years. So assuming no complications (which are rare enough with solar as there are no moving parts) you'd get back £30k over 25 years. Or your initial investment of £15k plus another £15k.

An equivalent bank rate to beat this would have to earn you £15k over 25 years i.e. £600 per year an interest rate of 4%. But as FiTs are tax free earnings the bank rate would have to be higher, with capital gains at 28% the equivalent taxed bank rate would have to be 5.12% to beat it.

But if you don't have that sort of money available and you have no inclination to install solar on your house in the future then letting a company use your roof to give you free electricity to me could make could sense.

An interesting point is that feed in Tariffs have been in operation in Germany since 1990, they've worked well in putting Germany well ahead of the benchmark for small scale solar. But the rates offered for new installations have gradually dropped. Assuming the same will occur over time here, it's easy to imagine that earlier adopters benefitted from better rates of return than later installations. The flip side of this is that as the technology improves Solar Cells will get cheaper and outputs will improve.

It's also worth thinking about the risk of the FiT being cancelled. Personally I don't believe this will happen, but it's certainly worth considering before an investment.

An interesting side point: At the moment plenty of Solar installations are put in without smart meters. These meters monitor the energy usage in your home like a normal electricity meter, but also monitor any electricity you produce and any extra you feed into the grid. These automatically feed information back to your energy supplier telling them what to bill you and what to pay you. So as I understand if you don't have a smart meter current legislation allows for 50% of the energy produced to be deemed as exported, until smart meters are installed. The Department of Energy and Climate Change plan to have one in all homes by 2020.
Apologies for going on, if you're still reading this I'm impressed :T

Ant

Ant, welcome to the forum. An excellent post, informative and well balanced, I'm sure many others will agree.

John_Pierpoint

Don't forget this investment is like an annuity or buying shares in a mine.
At the end of 25 years you may have to pay someone to take a pile of junk off your roof.
What ever is up there must have a finite life, unlike an investment in (say) a water supply company.
I'm not sure that an investment in GBP's might not turn out to be a load of junk in 25 years time too.

Cardew

AnAnt wrote: »

If you have £15,000 and do not need access to the money then investing in solar may well be a good choice. The feed in tariff for Solar PV (once your installation has been registered by an MCS certified installer) is guaranteed for 25 years. So assuming no complications (which are rare enough with solar as there are no moving parts) you'd get back £30k over 25 years. Or your initial investment of £15k plus another £15k.

An equivalent bank rate to beat this would have to earn you £15k over 25 years i.e. £600 per year an interest rate of 4%. But as FiTs are tax free earnings the bank rate would have to be higher, with capital gains at 28% the equivalent taxed bank rate would have to be 5.12% to beat it.



Ant

Welcome to the forum and, as stated above, a nice balanced post.

A couple of points on the economics.

What has Capital Gains got to do with money invested in a bank, or panels on a roof for that manner?

Don't forget also that the hypothetical £15,000 invested in a bank has interest compounded - which over a long period makes a big difference.

Moving parts or not, you must make allowances for repairs/maintenance - a new inverter or two? Cleaning panels? removing panels for roof repairs?

I think there is little doubt that in the long term solar PV will be a worthwhile investment - but it certainly is very long term.

I wonder how many people would clamour to invest in any scheme where it would be at least 12 to 15 years before they see a return on their investment.

AnAnt

Cardew wrote: »

Welcome to the forum and, as stated above, a nice balanced post.

A couple of points on the economics.

What has Capital Gains got to do with money invested in a bank, or panels on a roof for that manner?

Don't forget also that the hypothetical £15,000 invested in a bank has interest compounded - which over a long period makes a big difference.

Hi Cardew, thank you for the kind response.

I was using the capital gains tax rate as a tax rate on interest earned (capital gain), on the £15k example if it where put in a bank. Although looking at it now (See below) i should have used the 20% rate the is actual charged instead of 28%! My thought being that to compare bank saving vs Solar installation the actual return after tax is nice way of looking at it. Leading from the earnings from installing solar (FiTs, and the savings from producing your own electricity) being tax free, whereas with a savings account (unless your in a tax vehicle like an ISA) you're earnings will be subject to tax.

I can't post links yet, but google "bank interest tax rate" and the top of the list is the link to the direct gov website with a brief outline.

Although you rightly point out that compounding interest can be extremely powerful in imporving your returns over a long horizon. Although i guess you could put the FiT money into an account to earn compound interest, but without the original £15k behind it in the account this would be comparitively small.

Ant

AnAnt

Cardew wrote: »

I wonder how many people would clamour to invest in any scheme where it would be at least 12 to 15 years before they see a return on their investment.

I think it depends how you look at the investment. An installed solar will be earning you an income from when it is completed, but that total income will take years to add up to your initial investment.

So if your looking for a long term investment with this level of relatively consistent returns (weather permitting!) along with the green aspects solar may be great.

But if you need access to your investment for a rainy day, or the returns don't appeal to you then perhaps letting a company uses your roof if you have no intention of doing it yourself would be worth a thought.

Ant

Gizmosmum_2

AnAnt wrote: »

I think it depends how you look at the investment. An installed solar will be earning you an income from when it is completed, but that total income will take years to add up to your initial investment.

So if your looking for a long term investment with this level of relatively consistent returns (weather permitting!) along with the green aspects solar may be great.

But if you need access to your investment for a rainy day, or the returns don't appeal to you then perhaps letting a company uses your roof if you have no intention of doing it yourself would be worth a thought.

Ant

My sentiments exactly. I'm going to install 4kw (once I've got someone to respond to my phone calls/emails!) and pay the FIT off my relatively low mortgage which I'm lucky enough to have a really low interest rate on. I get the "feel good" factor and save some cash too. Sometimes it's not just about squeezing the extra few pennies (ok well pounds ) out of an investment) and just as much about doing your bit for future generations.