Free solar panel discussion

Pincher

Cardew wrote: »

Blue Peter presenters use the cardboard inserts from toilet rolls AND NOTHING ELSE.

I am sure that using coke containers breaches some Health and Safety regulation, and any more irresponsible suggestions like above should be reported to the moderator.

You ARE hard to please. Very well, here's a wind turbine rotor from toilet rolls.

Get two toilet roll inserts, use one as the centre spindle.
Cut the second insert longitudinally in half, to get the two blades.
Cut two curved slots in the spindle on oppsite sides.
Insert the two blades into the curved slots.

It should now look something like this =O= .

It you slide it on a tube, it should now work.

Do I get a Blue Peter badge or are you going to report me?

eidolona

Pincher wrote: »

You ARE hard to please. Very well, here's a wind turbine rotor from toilet rolls.

Get two toilet roll inserts, use one as the centre spindle.
Cut the second insert longitudinally in half, to get the two blades.
Cut two curved slots in the spindle on oppsite sides.
Insert the two blades into the curved slots.

It should now look something like this =O= .

It you slide it on a tube, it should now work.

Do I get a Blue Peter badge or are you going to report me?

With Bonehead the wolf man and his pet wolf Pincher circling, I just want to clarify a few things about the relevance of the Goldilocks Effect to this PV scheme. The pack of marauders will be moving in soon to savage me with their sarcastic remarks, but I think readers will know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

The Goldilocks Effect is a real issue for scientists. They cannot understand why, in a world where entropy or disorder is always increasing, the earth has maintained over a long period stable conditions fit for the emergence of living things. Why do a whole bunch of scientific constants have Goldilocks style ‘just right’ values. This is a profound mystery. The scientists solve this mystery by postulating an infinite number of parallel universes where no life is possible. The idea is that if an infinite number of universes exist, then it becomes certain that one will turn up with characteristics ‘just right’ for life. We simply got lucky.

I’m suggesting that an infinite number of parallel universes may not be necessary and that there exists in this world a transcendent active principle that always tends towards the balance of ‘just rightness’. Within us and out there in the world at large are maybe an infinite number of ‘just right’ tipping points. Exceed one of those ‘just right’ tipping points and you will be in a different ball game with different rules. In a manner of speaking you will have moved off ‘the straight path through life and onto a jig zag route’. You will have entered the world of the ‘opposites’ that always cycle eventually towards a ‘just right’ balanced state. What evidence is there that this ultimately untestable explanation is true?

The evidence lies in the repeating patterns of the living trends that anyone can observe in the world at large. Proverbs are an example of these trends: ‘Pride comes before a fall’; ‘Familiarity breeds contempt’; ‘The road to hell is paved with good intentions’ etc. It is ok to have a little pride in yourself, but go beyond what is ‘just enough’ and you will be riding for a ‘fall’ or humiliation. The outcomes must always emerge as surprises. Only a part of the world is predictable and available to scientific investigation. The world also wants to surprise us through an uncertainty principle.

Take, for example, ‘confidence’ in the stock market. When ‘confidence’ passes the ‘just enough’ tipping point, a ‘correction’ in the market becomes probable, but it is not possible to predict when it will occur. Savvy investors know this, but the average man knows nothing of it and sleep walks towards an abyss.

The bankers went beyond the ‘just enough’ tipping point with their loans to the sub prime market. They had no idea at all that they had entered a different ball game and how surprised they were when their banks collapsed.

Greedy politicians went beyond the ‘just enough’ tipping point with their expense claims. How surprised they were when their greed was dragged into the public gaze.

The bankers found a scapegoat to take their ‘fall’ for them. This was the hard working British tax payer. This is a balanced situation and a probability will emerge for the bankers to continue taking over-the-top risks and claiming big bonuses for failure. The greedy MPs weren’t so lucky. No scapegoat was found and they had to take the hit themselves.

High Technology goes too far and participates in the ‘opposites’ of the world. Once development has been taken beyond the ‘just enough’ tipping point the truth about High Tech becomes dual. The half truth is Yes, the PV panel scheme will be a boon financially for those who jump aboard. The other half of the Truth is that a scapegoat will need to be found to take the hit. That scapegoat is the average energy consumer who has no panels and who will pay extra for his or her electricity. That scapegoat is also the little old lady whose electricity bill rises and who is left to decide whether to eat or heat.

High Tech is often sited as the solution to a problem. But in the fullness of time a cyclic living trend will turn that solution into the new problem. Problem solvers will never be short of problems to solve because they generate problems through their solutions. We need to communicate and the problem solver solves this one by inventing the computer. Now terrorists can learn to make bombs, thieves can steal your cash without leaving home and children can access !!!!!!. The solution has become the new problem. Nuclear power is sited as a solution to global warming and so it is….right up until the terrorist bomb and the need for decommissioning. You take a high tech pill and feel better……..but ayup! there are side effects. What a wonderful solution the motor car was. It’s a magic carpet. But now we’re living in a huge car par and co2 emissions are ruining the planet. All this because the ‘just enough’ tipping points are exceeded. This is our legacy to our children……Human Folly! Why be part of that colossal folly by joining the PV scheme?

The high tech solution to save the planet will work. This is half the truth. The other half of the truth is that half the earth will be laid to waste. Never go beyond what is ‘just enough’! Goldilocks selects things that are ‘just right’ for her and escapes the three bears. Red Riding Hood is on her way to her grannies with a cake and some wine…..’just enough’ for granny. She meets the wolf who persuades her to pick flowers as well. She picks one and sees another more beautiful. She picks a second and a third and, in going way beyond what is ‘just enough’ for granny, she has no luck and gets eaten by the wolf. The secret of life is in those two stories. Never go beyond what is ‘just enough’ or ‘just right’. Learn to tap the world lightly for the meek will inherit the earth.

When you’ve gone way beyond what is ‘just right’ as we have done, its not what you do that is important, its what you don’t do. Turn back and don’t subscribe to this PV panel scheme is my advice. It’s a government backed scheme and if you think the authorities will conceive of anything that is going to save the planet and stop the lights going out, well I assure you it ain’t gonna be no scene like that. Successive governments have brought this country to its knees because they don’t understand how the world works. I can tell Cameron is a well intentioned guy as was Blaire and Brown. I shudder because the road to hell is paved with good intentions. ‘And broad is the way that leadeth unto destruction’. So don’t be one of the many caught hanging around on that road.

I’m getting ready for the wolves. I’ll give ‘em a dog biscuit. That’s food enough for their thought…..

Eidolona

Pincher

When Dharma is protected, Dharma protects.
When Dharma is destroyed, Dharma destroys.

Or similarly, Gaia.

furndire

Interesting thoughts, Eidolona, but then do we stand still and do nothing, man would still be in the dark ages.

quoia

furndire wrote: »

Interesting thoughts, Eidolona, but then do we stand still and do nothing, man would still be in the dark ages.

Only the one that hasn't got solar panels powering his cave

Not sure I should have Googled Eidolona :shocked: :embarasse :eek:

Pincher

The second dark age:

People with East-West roofs put up solar panels on their northern garden fence, plunging their neighbour's garden into permanent darkness. This drives the neighbour berserk,
and killing spree ensues.

Centuries later, when civilisation has returned, historians will call it the solar rage. People will have evolved into hairy creatures so we no longer need heating, and if you wanted lighting, you just put a hamster on a generator wheel.

Perry525

Do we have a right to sunshine?
The Government is asking us to spend £9,500 or more fitting solar panels.
This in attempt to create more jobs and get the economy moving and to reduce our import bill to help our balance of payments and to save the world, regardless of the Chinese just signing a contract with Australia to provide 50 million tons of coal over the next 25 years.
The EU have decreed that we must stop burning coal.

Having put our panels on the roof or wherever, we are promised a profitable return over 25 years.

In that time trees will have grown, buildings will have gone up around us and we could be living in the dark.

Do we have the right to object?
Can we force the removal of large trees?
Can we stop the building?
Have we a right to compensation? And if we do have a right who will pay us?

Elainemary

Just thought I'd tell you I've had no response from Homesun, so there's no point in asking how I got on - I'm being ignored. Having read ALL the posts it seems 50 - 50 whether to go for a free installation or not. Anyone know a GOOD PROFESSIONAL installer in SW London???

M4ximillion

I found out about all this when a friend forwarded an email that she’d received from the MSE site and I’ve read this forum with interest – including that other thread about whether a shade greener is a scam (and I echo what was said on there by another poster, Sarah Dyson of shadegreener has the patience of a saint!)

There are some posters on here with some very strong views about the free solar panel offer, and they seem very determined to get them across.

I’m just a mere mortal who has no strong views either way, other than I’m always looking at ways to save money

After getting the email I did as much research as I could on the FIT Scheme and the companies doing the freebie offer then emailed them all with some questions that weren’t really covered by their FAQs and only a shade greener has got back to me up to now.

After reading everything my personal view is this:

If I had the money I would definitely buy my own because I would get a better rate of return than it sat in a bank. BUT I would only buy my own if I were sure that I’d be staying in that property for at least 15 years because I’d want the FIT payments for at least that length of time and I don’t think that I’d be able to get all my investment back otherwise. I certainly wouldn’t borrow money to buy panels, even though people are saying the FIT payments would pay the loan off, I just don’t want to be lumbered with more debt.
Unfortunately, I haven’t got the spare cash so I’m thinking about the freebie option. Some people are making a great big issue about being tied into a contract for 25 years. Renting my roof to someone doesn’t bother me at all because I won’t be tied in to the 25 year contract, only my roof will and it doesn’t cost me a penny. I can sell my house and move on – I’m not going to be tied into anyting. My roof is also tied into a contract with Sky to have their dish on it – it doesn’t bother me. Also, it seems to me that the intention of the FIT scheme is exactly that anyway – to ensure that solar panels stay on the same roof for 25 years – otherwise why would they guarantee the FIT payments for 25 years? They want this tie-in whether you buy them yourself or go for the freebie option.
The freebie option also appeals to me because I don’t have to worry about maintenance or if something stops working or needs replacing. I can just forget them.
Who to go with? I reckon there probably isn’t much difference between the three although there is a poster on this forum who seems intent on promoting Homesun! Homesun from what I understand isn’t 100% free anyway but they also do this offer where you can buy the panels back, or something, or buy the contract out (I emailed Homesun for more specific details but they’ve not got back to me). I guess this would appeal to some people, in case they suddenly come into some money or something like that but nothing is said about just how much it would cost to buy the contract out – it could be a huge amount of money. And anyway, that doesn’t interest me. I just want to save a bit of cash on my electric bills so to be honest I think I would go with whichever one offers me a system – IF I do get offered a system – and I’m south facing with plenty of space so I’ll apply to all three and keep my fingers crossed.

digitaltoast

cat.solar wrote: »

The third picture is an old display box, which only gives the output of one of the inverters, not the 6 which are used by the whole roof. That is superceded by the new display underneath the Romag panels.

OK, happy to accept those corrections. I would say, however, that when I asked an official CAT person "is this the output from the WHOLE roof??", I was told that it was.

By the way, what is the full cost of the roof, including what the maintenance would have cost at normal price, how much has it ACTUALLY produced so far, and what timescale for breakeven have you come to so far?

As you say, it's been 15 years now, so it should be a good long time to get that data.

I'm happy to accept that the display was flaky, as I was also told to ignore the annual generation figures on the bottom right for the reason I stated before.

Does this mean that CAT has changed its tune on solar pv? I toured CAT again last year with a group, and they didn't exactly seem enthusiastic about the current state of PV or indeed would recommend it for feed in at that time. I should state that they continued to be (rightly, in my view) positive about solar thermal, though.

It would be good to know the current official position from CAT on the FiT.

Would CAT agree with the following statements of fact:

Solar PV is not currently viable without massive "rob Peter to pay Paul" financial bribes.

Solar PV will not lead to any reduction in the amount of any current form of generation. If you disagree with that statement, can you explain what powers industrial and domestic properties after 2pm in the winter, even if solar was fitted to every single building in the country?

Can you also state what you believe to be the accuracy of the statements made earlier in this thread that some people say that, at this latitude, some people are getting nearly 25% more generation from a panel than its rated maximum? I just find it hard to believe as tolerance is about 10% and those kWp figures are for latitude 35 degrees.