Free solar panel discussion

grahamc2003

Equaliser123 wrote: »

Can anyone give a ballpark figure of how much solar generated electricity would have to go to the 3kw immersion heater (and topped up with grid provided electricity) to produce lower cost water heating than a gas fired boiler (rated, say, C efficiency)?

Depends on the energy prices.

If gas is 3.2p/kwh, 80% efficient, so effectively 4p/kwh to heat water, and daytime electricity is 12p/kwh, then if the panels are producing 2kw, you'd break even by heating water (rather than sim ply letting it go to the grid). >3kw you're getting free hot water, >2kw and you're getting cheaper hot water than gas, <2kw and you're paying more than it costs to heat with gas.

Note that the value you are getting from your solar power when you heat water is a maximum of 4p/kwh under that scenario. You really don't want to heat water with solar power if you can possibly help it, because virtually any other use is worth 12p/kwh (if you genuinely need that use).

pameladavid

We are seriously considering a solar pv scheme at our home to take benefit of the FIT scheme.

Is anyone aware of any attractive financing schemes available (not tied in "free" schemes) to fund about £11k capital spend?

Are the Government or any other related organisations making finance available at better than High Street Banks lending rates?

ronlizpatsimon

Take out/increase your mortgage is the cheapest loan you get.
You could wait until Auterm 2012 when you can get a govenment loan in a scheme called "PAYS" (Pay As You Save).
It can also be called "Green Deal Plan". You get the loan for the installation (interest rate not yet decided) and pay it back monthly from your income from the FIT payments system. The repayments are arranged that you never have to pay any cash as the repayments are always less than the income from FITs. Also; the loan is against the user of the house, not the owner who had it installed. Thus if you sell up and move, you do not have to pay any more of the loan back. The new occupant takes over the payments (and gets the FIT payments and free solar energy)

Equaliser123

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Depends on the energy prices.

If gas is 3.2p/kwh, 80% efficient, so effectively 4p/kwh to heat water, and daytime electricity is 12p/kwh, then if the panels are producing 2kw, you'd break even by heating water (rather than sim ply letting it go to the grid). >3kw you're getting free hot water, >2kw and you're getting cheaper hot water than gas, <2kw and you're paying more than it costs to heat with gas.

Note that the value you are getting from your solar power when you heat water is a maximum of 4p/kwh under that scenario. You really don't want to heat water with solar power if you can possibly help it, because virtually any other use is worth 12p/kwh (if you genuinely need that use).

Interesting. Sounds as though that unless I have 2.5kw + 'spare' it would make sense. Trouble is maintaining 2.5kw is going to be reserved for only the sunniest of days.

ronlizpatsimon

Hello "grahamc2003"

Thank you for that excellant piece of maths. It made it much clearer to me.

I suppose this could be the situation where the EMMA component, mentioned earlier, comes into play. You decide that you are generating 3kw and that your electric immersion happens to use 3kw and so you see that you save 12p an hour (gas) (3 gas units at 4p a unit) if you use the solar heating instead. However; you find that you need a further 1kw to power other electric only items. That mains power unit will cost you a further 12p. So your total cost for an hour is 24p. So, instead, you switch off the immersion heater and use gas to heat the boiler. Now you pay 12p for the gas and nothing for the 1kw of electric needed for the other gadgets. Total cost therefore is 12p. (a saving of 12p per hour. However; you now have 2kw of spare power which will be fed back to the grid without benifit to you (free installations). So, introduce the EMMA component and it presumably feeds that spare power into the immersion heater, thus less gas is needed and a further saving made of 8p. Total cost is now down to 4p per hour. Of course all this is only exact if you continually use hot water. In practice, once the storage tank is hot, not much power is needed to keep it so.

John_Pierpoint

ronlizpatsimon wrote: »

Take out/increase your mortgage is the cheapest loan you get.
You could wait until Auterm 2012 when you can get a govenment loan in a scheme called "PAYS" (Pay As You Save).
It can also be called "Green Deal Plan". You get the loan for the installation (interest rate not yet decided) and pay it back monthly from your income from the FIT payments system. The repayments are arranged that you never have to pay any cash as the repayments are always less than the income from FITs. Also; the loan is against the user of the house, not the owner who had it installed. Thus if you sell up and move, you do not have to pay any more of the loan back. The new occupant takes over the payments (and gets the FIT payments and free solar energy)

As I understand it the "The Green Deal" must "wash its face".
This means you make a profit in spite of having to pay interest on the loan.
There will be a derogation from the need to comply with the (stringent) requirements of Building Regulations L1B (for improvement or refurbishment of existing properties) of 15 years pay back.
In other words the "Green Deal" will be priced so that if you decide you want to (say) re-render your home.
The local authority will say "OK but you have got to get your "U" value improved to 0.x" [where the "U" value is a measure of heat leaking through your wall measured in watts per sq meter per degree Centigrade (OK pedants I know it is K for Kelvin)].
You then say "How much is that going to cost me - I just want to keep the damp out and make the house look nice.?!!".
Local authority says - Tough you will have to take a loan from "The Green Deal".
You say "No I don't because insulating a solid wall will take 20 - 30 years to pay back!!!!!" (WHICH? figures).
Local authority replies "Oh yes you do because the insulation will qualify you for the Renewable Heat Incentive designed to get the payback down to 15 years."
You retire hurt muttering: "If we put the insulation on the outside the house will look as though someone had given it the Michelin Man treatment and if we put on the inside we will have to replace the original mouldings".

I don't think that PV panels & FiT will qualify for "The Green Deal", because the government has more than enough takers without throwing any more public-borrowing-requirement at it.

But what do I know, I'm just an opinionated forum poster.:D

ronlizpatsimon

Yes John, I have to agree with at least your last sentence!

Joking aside (or am I?). From what I have read, Solar Panels will be included in the "Green Deal". You implied that the government had already given cash towards the current schemes. This is not so. The Electric supply company and its customers fund the the current (FIT) scheme

John_Pierpoint

Ah but the "Condem" government, perhaps to demonstrate to our overseas creditors that they are running an honest hair shirt administration, has reclassified the payments as the proceeds of an electricity TAX, which is what they are.
Just like all the other stealth taxes.
Are you still calling them "[FONT=&quot]Compulsory Unrequited Payment":rotfl:

http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/faqs/item/548/
[/FONT]

Gizmosmum_2

I'm fairly sure the "Golden Rule" criteria for the Green Deal as it stands currently is that the measure must pay for itself within a 5 year period. Bye bye all renewables, solid wall insulation and possibly even boiler replacements ..... I'm guessing that the date for the RHI to go live has been moved deliberately to the same time as the Green Deal so that it looks like it's going to be part of the Green Deal when actually that was never the intention. Be happy to be proved wrong - only time will tell.

John_Pierpoint

To the question on "Why you have not installed solar PV"
how about buttons marked
"I do not own a south facing roof"
&
"I am in leased/rented property and would need landlord's permission"
&
"I live in a listed building/conservation area and have a bl00dy minded local authority"
&
"I live in a retirement bungalow and the local chav's/yobs would throw rocks at my panels"

Coincidently do PV panels do anything for a building's Energy Performance Certificate ?