Tenants - are you happy for your personal data to be shared ?

Callie22

ali_pasaul wrote: »

They are not scare tactics it’s what some landlords deal with every day in the office, would you like me to post some pictures of the knife wounds received by a landlord from his tenant when he stabbed him 5 times in the head and face and left him for dead or maybe even the dead bodies when one tenant killed another maybe that will help you see what can happen when some people lose it and you can’t check on their history before offering them a property “because it might violate their privacy.

Would you let just one person die because you did not want to be on a referencing site?

That's a little overdramatic - I would imagine that if you could actually find the stats, there have been more tenant deaths caused by LL negligence over any given period (ie carbon monoxide deaths etc), than tenants murdering or seriously assaulting LLs. Lets turn it round - would you let just one person die because there's no way that a tenant can realistically check up on a LL? Oh wait, they can't ... But given that either case is incredibly rare, it is rather a pointless and emotive statement to make in defence of this website.

And even after reading this thread, as a (good!) tenant I don't feel at all comfortable about this website and what it's trying to do. It still strikes me that it would be very, very easy for a LL (or a LA) with an axe to grind to blacklist a perfectly innocent tenant. Let me give you an example from my own life - a couple of years ago, myself and my partner moved to a new area. My OH is self employed, and I had just found my first permanent job after temping since leaving university - we were perfectly honest and open about this, provided references, accounts and contacts within OHs line of work who could vouch for him, showed our bank statements (even though I hate this!!) and provided all the information we were asked for.

We found a house through a local letting agency, and duly paid the deposit. Then the LA came back to us and said that the LL didn't trust us because OH was self employed and I was just starting a permanent job, and if we wanted to move into the house we'd need to pay six months rent upfront. We umm'ed and ahh'ed about this - we'd done this once before as new graduates, and found that it was basically an excuse for the LL and LA to ignore any problems completely for six months. We swore not to do it again, but we needed somewhere to live so we decided that we would pay the advance rent, provided that the LL could provide us with some proof of their own financial status, as we didn't want to hand over nearly 5k with no guarantees. So we asked about proof of ownership, and asked if the LL was financially stable. We also asked for some further details about where and how our money would be kept, just in case of any problems. We were told that we had no right to know that information, that the LL didn't want to tell us those details and we should just go away if we were going to be difficult. In the meantime, we had found out some things about the house and the area that really put us off - like it was in the local red-light area, that kind of thing. So we decided not to go ahead with the rental, even though it cost us our £300 holding fee. We found somewhere else to rent and it was a perfectly fine rental - reasonable LL, reasonable property etc.

Imagine though if when we'd left that property an alert had gone out on this website - 'I've just had an application from a Callie22 and her partner, anyone know anything about them?' Imagine if the LL we'd tried to rent from added his interpretation of events - 'Callie22 and her partner tried to rent a property from me in 20xx. Callie22 wasn't working, and I was suspicious about the partner's 'self-employment', so I asked for rent in advance. They wouldn't pay it and got really difficult, and then they disappeared. They wasted my time and I reckon I had a lucky escape'. Kind of puts a different slant on things, doesn't it?

Lets just imagine that my next LL isn't a member of the site, so can't post that we were in fact perfectly fine tenants - or maybe they are a member, but just can't be bothered. I wouldn't know about the review, so there we are, blacklisted throughout the country as 'bad' and 'dodgy' tenants with no way of defending ourselves. That's what worries me about this website - it's completely subjective, tenants can't defend themselves and it seems very, very one sided and unfair. I accept that renting a house out to anyone is ALWAYS going to have an element of risk, but it really does seem to be getting more than a bit hysterical. As a tenant, I don't really like being portrayed as some kind of criminal. Really, what's wrong with the current system of referencing? When you hear about LLs having problems it almost always seems to be because they haven't carried out the checks that are available properly - what the point of more complexity when what already exists is probably sufficient, if it's done right?

tbs624

millym wrote: »

Sorry if my remarks are upsetting LLs. I really would like to see a workable system, as it would have protected my parents when they were LLs.

Perhaps that should say *some* LLs.:)

Simply expressing different viewpoints shouldn't be cause for people to become "upset". It's only an internet forum. Please don't feel you need to apologise

tbs624

millym wrote: »

H
I think the site needs to have info in a more concrete form. If I were to SAR LRS, they probably only have my name, DOB, NINO, previous addresses. The potentially harmful info is not recorded is it? Therefore it's unchallengeable.

As a LL, if something about a prospective T doesn't add up, it's simple, don't give them a tenancy!
.

Good post Milly Hope you're feeling better today.

It's not just that the "potentially harmful" info is not recorded though: the fact that Ts NINOs and DOBs are held by this firm run by a private LL would be cause for concern for many people. (particularly when he has demonstrated his personal capacity for unpleasantness towards anyone who disagrees with his methodology, both within this thread and over on property tribes.)

Perhaps his perceived lack of people skills have meant that he has found it particularly hard going as a private LL? Its worth noting that PR/Ali/petit-filous? has, apparently, previously tried with his DB ideas and failed.

millym

tbs624 wrote: »

Perhaps that should say *some* LLs.:)

Simply expressing different viewpoints shouldn't be cause for people to become "upset". It's only an internet forum. Please don't feel you need to apologise

I know, it's just that the written word can come over much more harshly than a spoken dialogue, and I'm aware that some of my comments on this thread have upset people. For instance, I called the web design amateurish, which was probably uncalled for, but I meant it constructively.
:beer:

millym

tbs624 wrote: »

Good post Milly Hope you're feeling better today.

It's not just that the "potentially harmful" info is not recorded though: the fact that Ts NINOs and DOBs are held by this firm run by a private LL would be cause for concern for many people. (particularly when he has demonstrated his personal capacity for unpleasantness towards anyone who disagrees with his methodology, both within this thread and over on property tribes.)

I'm not altogether against the recording of this information, seeing it as perhaps a neccessary evil, it's more what happens with it, ie, old LL can say anything in a phonecall, with no recourse.

Interestingly, my mum acted as guarator for me for my current tenancy, and was horrified at the intrusiveness of the info they required and refused to give her bank details, which the LA agreed was not neccessary.

I haven't read the other thread, so can't comment, but the site owner comes across as a very aggrieved LL who has been highly motivated to create the site for both self interest and philanthropical reasons, not for profit.

Seems to me that, if they iron out some of the problems, it could be a goer.

Perhaps his perceived lack of people skills have meant that he has found it particularly hard going as a private LL? Its worth noting that PR/Ali/petit-filous? has, apparently, previously tried with his DB ideas and failed.

I do find ali's posts and the website difficult to read (large blocks of text), but he is obviously passionate about the subject.

What if the site was a database of LLS and Ts? Then Ts could check on prospective LLs. Might at least stop accusations of bias.

tbs624

millym wrote: »

I know, it's just that the written word can come over much more harshly than a spoken dialogue, and I'm aware that some of my comments on this thread have upset people. For instance, I called the web design amateurish, which was probably uncalled for, but I meant it constructively.
:beer:

You can't worry too much about people's interpretation: IIRC what you actually said was something like it had "an amateurish feel", which I thought was a valid comment. All comments on how individual end users see a website should be taken on board by those whose website it is. MSE's site itself has had tweaks made in response to users comments.

Sometimes folk over-react because of their own personal circs at that point in their day/life and for others it's just that they are "like that" in their dealings with everyone.

tbs624

millym wrote: »

I do find ali's posts and the website difficult to read (large blocks of text), but he is obviously passionate about the subject.

Ali is Paul's AE or sock puppet

millym wrote: »

I'm not altogether against the recording of this information, seeing it as perhaps a neccessary evil, it's more what happens with it, ie, old LL can say anything in a phonecall, with no recourse.

The checks that are already carried out on Ts are pretty extensive, if the LL does the job properly.The data protection laws say that personal data must not be kept for longer than necessary.In this firms case, he claims to have info running back 10 years in some cases. Now, if it is only for LLs to use why should the personal data of someone who was T whilst at Uni or between housemove,s several years previously, remain logged on this DB?

millym wrote: »

Interestingly, my mum acted as guarator for me for my current tenancy, and was horrified at the intrusiveness of the info they required and refused to give her bank details, which the LA agreed was not neccessary.

This is the trouble - we are now living in a world where because "information " is out there, everyone thinks that they have a right to it. (The reason for that request from the LA will have been that, in the event of both you and your mum defaulting, if the LL needed to pursue to court, seeking first a CCJ, then enforcement they would have the bank details to make things easier. As the form will already have asked all other sort of ID questions of your mother, many would feel the same way your mother did.

millym wrote: »

I haven't read the other thread, so can't comment, but the site owner comes across as a very aggrieved LL who has been highly motivated to create the site for both self interest and philanthropical reasons, not for profit.

I may be wrong but I think that the "not for profit" element is less a case of philanthropy than an attempt to circumvent specific regs

clutton_2

Some very well argued and cogent points giving us all pause for thought today.... thanks everyone ...

Referencing is a very very difficult thing in this day and age - folks who are willing to put references in writing run the risk of being sued if they are not absolutely as the referee wants them to be....

As an example, when i first began referencing.. 11 years ago... i recall writing to I think it was Barclays, about a tenant, asking for a financial reference...... I ended up going into the prospective tenant's bank to discuss things there... with their written permission....

the customer service person discussed things very generally with me, and then said she would send out a standard letter.... She showed me the 5 standard letters which they used as references....

every single one of them said the person was a good person, with sound financial habits..... but some said much more nice things than others...

it was only if you saw all 5 references that you realised how terribly carefully crafted these letters had been...

Verbal referencing is much more reliable from a LLs point of view, as someone is much more likely to be honest over the phone than in writing....


I hope this would also apply to a prospective tenant wanting to talk to another landlords current tenants

The reference from the last landlord and the one before that, are only 2 pieces in the referencing jigsaw.. as we all know , in addition there are the credit check, electoral roll, bank statements, employers reference and so on.. so no landlord is ONLY going to use LRS as their sole source of decision making....

Referencing via LRS is a part of the whole process.. an important part, but, a part... and i think we may be in danger of getting this out of proportion


Lets see if we can discuss the excellent idea put forward of a joint Poor Landlord and Poor Tenant data base...

how would that work ?

who would run it impartially ? - certainly neither LL nor T !!

who would pay for it ?

How would apocryphal entries, from both landlord and tenant, be verified ?

How long would data be kept ?



RE only needing to keep data for a year..... i have had contact from local authorities well over a year after a tenant has left, in order to query HB/LHA payments.....

The law allows me to take an ex-tenant to court for 6 years, and the tax man wants records for 6 years, so for me, that is why i chooose to keep documents for that length of time..


Re caring about the community.... the professional landlords i know all care about the neighbours in their streeets... good neighbours are crucial if things go wrong, they can alert you very quickly - and that is very useful indeed.... Good neighbours can help with witness statements for loud music offences; good neighbours can alert you to changes in behaviour and this can help you put a stop to any developing anti-social behaviour...

Landlords dont want property in a street which is full of ASBO folks.. we wont be able to let our property if it is !! So maintaining good neighbourly relations is in our, and the community's, best interests....

tbs624

clutton wrote: »

Referencing via xxx is a part of the whole process.. an important part, but, a part... and i think we may be in danger of getting this out of proportion

Out of proportion to what?

Some of the arguments for this sort of DB line up with the "if you're innocent/have nothing to hide, then you won't mind your DNA and fingerprints being stored. It helps us catch the crims, see?"

You, as a signer upper, and Paul/Ali/yogurtperson try to dress up this scheme as beneficial to the T. It quite simply isn't.

What he is seeking to do is to create a "false benefit" , ie if your data is logged with us then you can rent x property.

clutton wrote: »

Lets see if we can discuss the excellent idea put forward of a joint Poor Landlord and Poor Tenant data base...

What does all this info tell us Clutton, really? Paul via his sock puppets wants us to believe that we can all sleep more easily in our beds, safe from murder, because of his scheme. It's a nonsense.

There was, as you are aware, plans for a national LL registration scheme similar to the Scottish one. The temporary abandonment of that was hugely welcomed by the LL associations

clutton wrote: »

Landlords dont want property in a street which is full of ASBO folks.. we wont be able to let our property if it is !! So maintaining good neighbourly relations is in our, and the community's, best interests....

In general, LLs initial concern is for their own property and their potential profits, however you dress it up and , unfortunately, that sentence I've " bolded" reinforces that viewpoint.

The purpose of this DB is absolutely not to "save our local communities" it's purely and simply about some LLs looking out for their own interests.

PrincessPlaty

Ok i admit to only skim reading the thread so apologies if i do miss the answer to my question as i know the subject was touched upon earlier in the thread, and i haven't had the chance to read through the other thread yet neither.

I am a private tenant and have been now for a few years. 3 years ago myself and my children were victims of DV and are still to this day being harassed by the perpetrator. The most recent incident being 2 days ago.

I have had to move now because of him on several occasions each time into private rented accommodation.

If one of my previous landlords has entered my information into this website.

What is there to protect myself and my children from being found (if not so the full address but possibly the area that we are living in).

From what i have seen and read it is quite easy to register and 'act' as a landlord, so can anyone pretend to be a landlord and gain information about me?

If that is the case and no proof is required to register with the website to gain the information, is Mr Routledge in agreement for me taking him to court for damages for my information being shared without my consent should this lead to myself and my children being found?