£9500 phone bill! Can anyone help?

marcuswarren71

Hi,
I have 2 contracts with orange, one which I have had for about 4 years and another which I got about 18 months ago just to get a new phone, when I got the new phone and sim, I activated it to get the phone working, then destroyed the sim and binned it. Every month I pay for both contracts, predictably, the second contracts bill is always for the flat amount. This month, I went online to pay my bill and was shocked to see an amount of over £7800, I assumed this was a mistake until I went into my itemised bill and saw that all but £52 of this amount was charged to the number that I binned 18months ago, there were literally hundreds of calls made to morocco and france, some individual calls had cost over £100! To make things worse, I then checked the usage since last bill and sen another £1800 had been charged for the first 6 days of July. I phoned orange, they said they would pass it to their security department and they would contact me within 48 hours, I asked what I should do about paying my bill in the meantime and was told not to worry about it for the time being. I waited 4 days for a call and ended up ringing them back only to discover I had been cut off. I rang them from another phone and explained my situation to another lady, she put me on hold whilst she spoke to the security department, when she came back, she said she was terribly sorry, but I was liable for the full amount and recommended I get a solicitor.
Since then, i have paid the part of the bill for the phone that I use and asked them via email to reconnect me but to no avail, I have also emailed the orange executive office and was told to take it up with customer service. I am a student teacher on a very low income with a child to support, how on earth can they expect me to pay this? and how can they let such a huge bill run up without alarm bells ringing?
Can anyone help or offer any advice? I am understandably worried sick.
Many thanks,Marcus Warren.

minnie123

I am no expert and i'm sure they will be along soon but if it was me I would contact Ofcom and also citizens advice.

4743hudsonj

This is VERY odd.

Even with physical access to your destroyed sim (i assume destroyed means the chip itself being cut? maybe burnt? it takes so doing to clone a sim, not something your average lowlife thief can do. It takes knowing the IMSI number written on the sim and the Ki number which requires a complete chip, a reader and some decent software. These are affordable but rare.

So it beggars the question, how somebody got your accounts encrypted "key" to use your account.

Id be reading the exact wording of my contract to find out your EXACT liabilities, as its impossible that somebody has had your actual sim so whose fault is it that they have access to your account, all i can say is that in all probability this will get ugly and will require a solicitor.

Id also shadow the above and get straight onto ofcom and Trading standards

unholyangel

I briefly worked for T-Mobile for a short time and according to them, everytime you make a call it triangulates your position to within 3m SQ.

The cost of attaining this info was around £500 and we were told to advise the customers that we could run this check but if it turned out the calls were made from their postcode/area then they would be liable for the costs of this trace. Obviously you get a lot of people calling, not realising how much they used then claiming they never made the calls so i'm not sure whether it was a lie they got us to tell or whether traces like this are truly possible.

Why didnt you cancel the contract? You would have had to pay a early cancellation fee but at least it wouldnt have been active?

Also, everytime you make a call your network logs your IMEI (unique to your phone). Ask them to check this number against both your old phone and your new one. You do also get a IMSI (sim equiv of IMEI) although i am not sure if these are unique to your phone number or unique to your sim card. If it is the latter, it may give you good grounds to contest your liability.

I'd also check with your SP and ask if anyone has requested a replacement sim. If you are on contract, these are often provided FOC so it wouldnt have even shown up on your bill.

4743hudsonj

unholyangel wrote: »

I briefly worked for T-Mobile for a short time and according to them, everytime you make a call it triangulates your position to within 3m SQ.

The cost of attaining this info was around £500 and we were told to advise the customers that we could run this check but if it turned out the calls were made from their postcode/area then they would be liable for the costs of this trace. Obviously you get a lot of people calling, not realising how much they used then claiming they never made the calls so i'm not sure whether it was a lie they got us to tell or whether traces like this are truly possible.

Why didnt you cancel the contract? You would have had to pay a early cancellation fee but at least it wouldnt have been active?

Also, everytime you make a call your network logs your IMEI (unique to your phone). Ask them to check this number against both your old phone and your new one.

Sounds interesting, honestly didnt know about the IMEI being recorded, as for the trace, i suspect its half true. I can get my position on google maps on my phone by using gsm signal alone to about 300m accuracy. SO it may be possible but not that accurate.

unholyangel

4743hudsonj wrote: »

Sounds interesting, honestly didnt know about the IMEI being recorded, as for the trace, i suspect its half true. I can get my position on google maps on my phone by using gsm signal alone to about 300m accuracy. SO it may be possible but not that accurate.

Surely the SP should be able to locate (generally) where the phone is now.

I'd report it to the police tbh as the SP will probably be more forthcoming with them. Plus people who are genuinely innocent of such "scams" dont normally waste police time (especially when if lying, they would be attempting fraud).

And yeah i dont think many people know about the IMEI being logged each and every time you make a call! Bearing in mind this was maybe 8 years ago so i daresay they can do even more stuff now!

OP, have you tried calling the phone number? Unless your SP have restricted it as stolen, they should still be able to receive incoming calls - even though outgoing will be barred due to your account being over its credit limit.

4743hudsonj

I agree, in any event the OP should resist payment at all costs and fight it. Others have got off of larger bills that were their fault so this can be won....

unholyangel

Yep.

I'd check on the "debt free wannabe" forum but i'm pretty sure if you write a letter disputing the debt, they need to cease collection until it has been investigated fully. Providing them with a crime case number (cant remember the exact term for police reports!) will help back you up.

Also, i would ask they send you anything out in writing also (even by email) just so you have confirmation of their allegations, reports (including their findings and the basis of their findings) etc should you require them down the line.

Its a lot of money so i suggest you try and cover your !!! each and every step of the way as much as possible.

marcuswarren71

I never thought about cancelling the contract, I just thought that as I would have to pay it for 2 years and I had destroyed the sim, it wouldn't be a problem. Surely orange would know what region the calls were being made from, my concerns are how could the account activity not be flagged until I rang them? and why, for the 18 months I have been paying the contract, there has never been any usage on the sim. Ive read stories where people have run up bills of many thousands of pounds due to a lack of awareness on charges, and the phone company writes it off when the press get involved, the fact that I clearly haven't made these calls is frustrating, I pay my debts, I ran up fairly large credit card debts and never shied away from paying them, thats because it was my fault, this bill isn't my fault so even if I was in a position to pay it, I wouldn't.
Marcus Warren.

unholyangel

As advised, i think it would be best to report the matter to the police, write a letter of dispute to orange (recorded delivery) and seek legal advice.

Not sure if network operators ever monitor usage akin to banks for irregularities but it might be worthwhile investigating this to see if you could claim. I find it amazing the charges are this high. Have you asked orange how high your credit limit is?

Most people would have a credit limit of £100 max. Maybe £500 for business lines (again bearing in mind this was years ago but call charges were way more expensive). When you reach your credit limit, it should automatically suspend your account and stop any outgoing calls...........even if it is halfway through the month.

And again, ask for everything to be sent to you in writing. That way you have it documented.

4743hudsonj

marcuswarren71 wrote: »

I never thought about cancelling the contract, I just thought that as I would have to pay it for 2 years and I had destroyed the sim, it wouldn't be a problem. Surely orange would know what region the calls were being made from, my concerns are how could the account activity not be flagged until I rang them? and why, for the 18 months I have been paying the contract, there has never been any usage on the sim. Ive read stories where people have run up bills of many thousands of pounds due to a lack of awareness on charges, and the phone company writes it off when the press get involved, the fact that I clearly haven't made these calls is frustrating, I pay my debts, I ran up fairly large credit card debts and never shied away from paying them, thats because it was my fault, this bill isn't my fault so even if I was in a position to pay it, I wouldn't.
Marcus Warren.

This is my point, maybe going to papers will help you out too.

How was the sim "destroyed" anyways?