gas fire spillage.

hioneday

I live in a housing association home and back in November had a gas fire fitted to replace the very old one I had. The contractors are a big firm and in my opinion didn't do a very good job. The gas fire was spilling according to the fitter and he had to get on to the maker of the fire to check what to do. He came back the following day and said to run the fire for an hour or so to get rid of the oil in the pipes. Forward to a month ago when the same firm came to do the service, this fitter promptly condemned the fire due to spillage but not to worry the fumes are not harmful!
We notified the housing association and got a virtual shrug of the shoulders. Since then we have had a total of 6 engineers come to test the fire, the one yesterday from Baxi also said the fire would not work because of the short flue (we live in a bungalow) and was also surprised that we had been told we could use the back boiler. He turned it all off and instructed us not to use either, he gave us a form that stated the fire was "immediately dangerous".
The housing associations answer is to fit a combi boiler which entails a big upheaval for us for at least a week with furniture having to be moved and left in the middle of the room, the attic having to be cleared by us and 2 rooms that will need to be decorated when the job is finished. My feelings are that we are being treated as second class citizens because we have a landlord and that if I had employed the contractors myself I would have a come back against them. Has anyone had an experience like this and how was it sorted please. As OAP's we have not the money or the inclination to splash it around, I suppose in this regard we were lucky because we could not afford to have the fire on a lot in the winter and therefore perhaps avoiding breathing in these fumes.

gas4you

Are we talking about a new fire front for a back boiler, or a new fire on its own?

If the latter, what has the back boiler got to do with it. I am confused by your post.

I hope you don't mean they fitted a new standard fire over the front of the back boiler itself!

hioneday

sorry for the confusion but I am not teckie minded. The back boiler is 9 years old and is fitted in the fireplace beneath the chimney, I control it from a mains switch and a timer in the airing cupboard. The new fire is a baxi Bermuda and as far as I can see has no connection to the back boiler. The fitter told us we could use the back boiler but not the fire, the fires manufacturer rep told us we could not use either because if the fire spilled then so would the back boiler as the back boiler could not be tested without removing the fire from wall and this defeated the object by allowing more draught into the chimney than would be there when the fire was in situ. I do hope I am making sense here but as you can tell these fitters, gas inspectors and reps can talk up a storm and blame each other for the problem. Thank you for the help though.

gas4you

As you say the new fire is a Baxi Bermuda, I think you mean it is a new fire front to the boiler. The 'Bermuda' part is the name of the back boiler itself followed by the model number.

Before fitting a new fire front to your boiler the fitter should have closed all windows and doors in that room and carried out a flue flow test with a smoke pellet. All the smoke should have gone up the flue.

He would then have fitted the new fire front to the boiler and tested this for spillage. This is done with a smoke match, but the match has to be placed exactly where the manufacturers instructions say to place it, otherwise you will get false results.

I've never known a bungalow chimney too be too short for a flue to work properly.

Was it a really hot day when the spillage test was carried out? I have in the past known the metal flue terminal to get hotter in the sun than the flue gases, therefore not allowing the flue gases to convect upwards and outwards.

If I was your engineer, I would remove the fire front, and start with the flue flow test. The comment about not getting proper results without the fire in place is rubbish when checking the basic flue.

Not all Baxi Bermudas can have a new fire front fitted. Do you know the exact model you have and the model number of the fire front?

Ii appears, from here, that you have been a victim of a complete mess up, with no one in attendance having a clue what they are on about or how to fit a fire to the back boiler.

You could contact Gas Safe and request a visit from an inspector. He will tell you exactly what is allowed and is not and whether waht you have got is suitable for the back boiler. This is a free service.

hioneday

Hi gas4you, sorry to take up so much of your time but thank you so much for listening to me. On the form the rep left me it says " Baxi B,B,U with a serial number of 120440" The installation instructions are for baxi bermuda c5. He did the smoke test as you described and said that it took a while coming out of the chimney but it could be due to cobwebs in the flue. With all the windows and doors shut he did the smoke match test at the place designated by the manufacturer (he should know I hope as he works for them) He tried at least a half dozen times but only twice was there no spillage. The problem seems to be that these new fires have a heat exchanger and if the draw is not strong enough to combat this exchanger the smoke does not go up the chimney. The engineer did say that if a new flue had not been fitted when the back boiler was fitted then a new flue might solve it. To my knowledge the existing flue must be 20 years old at least.
The one good thing to have come out of all this is the original gas fitters tell me they have now changed their protocols so that these fires are no longer fitted in bungalows.
I would just like someone from the housing association or the sub contractors to care that something has gone wrong and not keep passing the buck. It will end up with me footing the bill for their !!!! up. I will have a look at getting the gas safe people involved so thank you for the advice. I would buy you a pint if I could get it down my router. many thanks.

dander

Personally, I would accept the offer of the combi. I think you'll find it's a lot less upheaval than you fear - I had my back boiler replaced with a combi last year and moved to the opposite side of the house and there wasn't much furniture moving to be done and certainly not two rooms to be redecorated! I had every radiator in the house replaced at the same time, and it still took less than a week. For just a boiler change, it will only be a couple of days. As far as I can see the only redecoration would be sorting out the chimney breast where the old boiler and fire used to be. I was left with a neat rectangular hole that could have been covered with a bit of hardboard and tidied with a small amount of paint. If this is something that worries you, I should think it's worth talking to the housing association because they may be prepared to sort that as part of the installation. If you miss having a fire in the living room, then you can get plug in free-standing electric fires quite cheaply which would still give you a nice cosy feature in the room.

If you are a household of just two you will probably find the installation of a modern efficient combi boiler will give you considerable savings on fuel costs in the future.

hioneday

Thank you for your input Dander, I shall probably have to do as the big boys say and I hope that it will be as easy as you say. The original fitters have already told me it will take them a week to fit the combi boiler, pipes have to be taken out that have been in situ for many years, through the ceilings, behind plastered walls, wooden shuttering that we put over unsightly pipework will all be pulled down. I wish it was just a hole in the fireplace, I could live with that. Along with all that I have 3 dogs that do not take kindly to strange men tramping through the house, it is all going to be a nightmare. Hey ho, I might win the lottery and be able to book us all into a week away (pigs might fly) or with the savings I am going to make I can book myself into recovery somewhere.

gas4you

I think a week for a bbu to combi change is a bit ott. I allow 3 days for me working on my own. Sometimes, if there are unforseen problems, it may stretch to 3 1/2 days.

hioneday

I think my housing association has the wrong sub contractors, I was told it would be 4 or 5 days for 2 men. Pity you live so far away.lol. Many thanks for your encouragement, as yet I have not heard when the work will start, I expect it will be in the winter!!! I am still not happy that this firm left me with a potentially dangerous appliance for 6 months but they do not seem bothered. Does not exactly inspire confidence in any of their work.The joys of social housing.

gas4you

Just because you live in social housing does not mean you have to accept lesser quality or be put at risk!

You can still contact Gas Safe and get a rocket put up their proverbial.

It really winds me up that those in social housing, or who have to wait for grants, get lesser treatment than those who pay their own money.

I used to do a lot of grant work and was always told to fit the smallest power and cheapest combi. I fell out many times with those in charge because I fitted the same boilers as I would for my private customers.

I always treat everybody the same.

Canucklehead

hioneday wrote: »

I think my housing association has the wrong sub contractors, I was told it would be 4 or 5 days for 2 men. Pity you live so far away.lol. Many thanks for your encouragement, as yet I have not heard when the work will start, I expect it will be in the winter!!! I am still not happy that this firm left me with a potentially dangerous appliance for 6 months but they do not seem bothered. Does not exactly inspire confidence in any of their work.The joys of social housing.

Good evening: impossible to say how long the conversion from open vented to sealed system (combi) could take as it depends of the site requirements and the standard of the specification e.g. if the RGI powerflushes the system (and many don't) you could add the better part of a day on to the job, upgrading gas supply, removing HW cylinder, F&E tank, cold water storage, replacing the water main (it could be iron or lead) etc will take time.

Every install is different. A good job shouldn't be an expedient one;)

HTH

Canucklehead