Manchester City Council Tax: Bailiff Visit but only just notified.

pmhtuk

Hi all

Need to get this off my chest and see if any good advice can come from it before I go vent my anger in Manchester City Council's office tomorrow (I dknow people in customer-facing jobs don't deserve the stuff they get from people in this state, but I'd want to speak with a manager quite calmly)..

Anyhow, I was due to move house last August from a house in Wigan to one in Manchester all on a rental basis. Everything went fine until moving in day when I reached the house to find that the previous tenant had stolen items and gone on the run. I refused to move in as the condition of the house was appalling and the agent gave in finally and I didn't move in.

During this time, I remained living in Wigan at the house there and was exempt from paying Council Tax as I was a student until September 2009. I have a certificate from the university as well as a document from Wigan council saying they've accepted that I was a student and exempt until September.

I moved into a different flat in Manchester on 6 September 2010 and began paying council tax as normal on receipt of the bill.

Today I've come home from work to find a 'Warning of a Bailiff visit' letter from Manchester City Council chasing £176 from unpaid council tax at the house I was due to move into. The letter explains that they've been to court and Manchester Magistrates Court have granted a liability order against me.

This is the first time I've heard anything about this, and they have actyally wrote directly to my new address. I can only assume old documents were sent to the house I should've moved into, and due to bad relates with the agent, I guess I never received any documents in the post.

I've got plenty of evidence to show that I was covered at Wigan until 5 Sept and then from 6 Sept paid council tax to Manchester council.

I'm a bit confused how they didn't see my details on their system (I don't have the most common name) under the place I've lived in under them for the last 11 months. Their debt recovery process explains they try to contact by all means known before going to court to get a liability order, but I never heard anything.

I'm a bit livid as I hate to think my name has been said in court! And they've never notified me of anything. If I was away or didn't get this letter, would the bailiffs have been able to access my flat?

I'm going to call them in the morning and complain. I'm really angry that it's got to this stage.

Does anyone know the best thing for me to do, other than provide the documents to them to prove where I've been living?

Thanks in advance

P x:mad:

clutton_2

i think if you have not activated a Royal Mail postal redirect service on leaving Wigan that no one else is responsible for you getting your own mail redirected.. so you cannot blame anyone else for your not getting mail..

with regard to your CT liability for the un-lived-in-manchester property.. you need to ask the court for another hearing. Write a letter asking for this, and explain your reasons, and take it to the court in person and and ask to see the court manager.... and explain that you did not receive the documents because you were living elsewhere and take proof of that - tenancy agreement, utility bills, bank statements ....

The court may grant you another hearing.... to explain..

what i dont know is whether you will already have a CCJ - you automatically get a CCJ if you do not pay an amount ordered to be paid by the judge within a specific timeframe.... ifg you do pay within the time frame then you dont get a CCJ.. but because Manchester council are now using BAiliffs this usually means that the court has previously ordered you to pay (even tho you have not had the letters) and you have not..

phone the court first and find out the situation .... before going to the council...

good luck

what puzzles me is why the agent for the Manchester house had informed the council you were responsible for the CT if you refused to move in.... you might ask the judge this also

DVardysShadow

clutton wrote: »

i think if you have not activated a Royal Mail postal redirect service on leaving Wigan that no one else is responsible for you getting your own mail redirected.. so you cannot blame anyone else for your not getting mail. ...
what puzzles me is why the agent for the Manchester house had informed the council you were responsible for the CT if you refused to move in.... you might ask the judge this also

BUT but but CT demands would be sent not to Wigan but to the property OP did not move into in Manchester. Having not moved in, OP would have no reason to set up a postal redirect ion.

To me it looks like LL or agent are possibly being vindictive here - falsely passing pmhtuk's name to the council as the occupier of the house, but presumably not passing on his address - then court order achieved, letting the council know his address.

pmhtuk: did the Agent have your current address?

clutton_2

""but CT demands would be sent not to Wigan but to the property OP did not move into in Manchester. Having not moved in, OP would have no reason to set up a postal redirect ion.""


i see your point DVS... yes indeed - maybe the agent is being incompetent... can OP check on 192 to see if someone else lives there now ?

CIS

with regard to your CT liability for the un-lived-in-manchester property.. you need to ask the court for another hearing. Write a letter asking for this, and explain your reasons, and take it to the court in person and and ask to see the court manager.... and explain that you did not receive the documents because you were living elsewhere and take proof of that - tenancy agreement, utility bills, bank statements ....

The court may grant you another hearing.... to explain..

The court wont re-hear the applicatin once its been granted, any dealings now need to be made with the council.

what i dont know is whether you will already have a CCJ - you automatically get a CCJ if you do not pay an amount ordered to be paid by the judge within a specific timeframe.... ifg you do pay within the time frame then you dont get a CCJ.. but because Manchester council are now using BAiliffs this usually means that the court has previously ordered you to pay (even tho you have not had the letters) and you have not..

Council Tax recovery uses a Liability Order rather than a CCJ - a Liability Order doesn't go on your credit record but unlike a CCJ that council do need to apply back to the court before using bailiff action etc.

This is the first time I've heard anything about this, and they have actyally wrote directly to my new address. I can only assume old documents were sent to the house I should've moved into, and due to bad relates with the agent, I guess I never received any documents in the post.

Had you supplied the address details to the council with the intention of moving and then not ?. The legislation allows that the council send any documents to the last known address, the responsibility to ensure that addresses are updated is that of the council tax payer.

If you signed a tenancy but then didn't move in to the property then under some circumstances you can still be liable for the council tax even if you live elsewhere.

sonastin

Do you have any paperwork documenting your refusal to move into the property in question? Taking a Devils Advocate / vindicitve LA point of view, you could have kept the property in Wigan and taken the flat in Manchester as a 2nd home so proof that you were still there doesn't necesarily prove that you weren't also responsible for CT in Manchester, although one or other should qualify for 2nd home discount. On balance of probabilities its pretty darned unlikely as I can't think of a reason why someone would need a second home in Manchester if they live in Wigan (or vice versa)! But if you can prove you refused to move in it helps to make your case bullet proof.

A calm conversation with a manager about how you have never lived in this property and you have only just discovered that they were seeking to recover CT from you otherwise you would have defended these claims earlier and perhaps you could go to court together to get the judgment overturned sounds like a very reasonable way forward in the circumstances. Just make sure you take a deep breath before you go in!

Good luck

DVardysShadow

CIS wrote: »

The court wont re-hear the applicatin once its been granted, any dealings now need to be made with the council.

So what appeal can be made against a liability order?
AFAICS, if a liability order is granted, a bone headed council may just say "It woz us wot won in court" and you end up having to pay despite no case.

Would anyone actually care to say that this advice is incomplete or wrong?

CIS wrote: »

Had you supplied the address details to the council with the intention of moving and then not ?. The legislation allows that the council send any documents to the last known address, the responsibility to ensure that addresses are updated is that of the council tax payer.

There is a circular argument here. If a liability order is wrongly granted, the liability order effectively says the person subject to the order is the council tax payer. So even if they had no connection to the property, the order makes them retrospectively responsible for telling the council their address.

To use an absurd example [to point out how absurd it appears]. Suppose Westminster Council get it into their heads that DVardysShadow is the occupier of 10 Downing Street. They send my a Council Tax bill, which understandably I don't pay. Ultimately, they get a Liability order. So am I responsible for not telling them that ididn't live at 10 Downing Street and is there no appeal for me?

CIS wrote: »

...If you signed a tenancy but then didn't move in to the property then under some circumstances you can still be liable for the council tax even if you live elsewhere.

Could you please elaborate? This is the most relevant paragraph for the case in question.

DVardysShadow

sonastin wrote: »

A calm conversation with a manager about how you have never lived in this property and you have only just discovered that they were seeking to recover CT from you otherwise you would have defended these claims earlier and perhaps you could go to court together to get the judgment overturned sounds like a very reasonable way forward in the circumstances. Just make sure you take a deep breath before you go in!

I agree, especially as OP appears to have been stitched up by Letting Agent.

CIS

...If you signed a tenancy but then didn't move in to the property then under some circumstances you can still be liable for the council tax even if you live elsewhere.

In law you can have liability on multiple properties - think of L/L's who own many properties or , in this case, a person who would be treated as having a second home in addition to his main home (if that is what has happended with the tenancy).

So what appeal can be made against a liability order?

I was possibly being too basic on my reply, the OP cannot challenge the actual issuing liability order by contacting the magistrates court and asking for an re-hearing of the original case, they can however, if they wish, challenge the order in the high court which can involve asking a magistrate to allow an appeal to the high court for a re-consideration of the issuing of the order.

Council tax - Grounds for appeal

Appeal against a Liability Order being granted

A Liability Order can only be challenged by an appeal to the High Court by way of:

• Case stated on a point of law (must be done within 21 days via the Magistrates Court)
• Judicial review (within 3 months)

Case Stated:

• The aggrieved person can question the magistrates decision on the grounds that it is wrong in law or is in excess of their powers
• The application must be made within 21 days of the liability order hearing
• If the magistrates believe the application is frivolous, they can refuse to state the case
• If the magistrates refuse to state a case, the High Court can make an order requiring the magistrates to state the case
• The High Court would then hear the case and make a decision based on the fact.

In either of the above, customers should seek independant legal advice.

CIS

I agree, especially as OP appears to have been stitched up by Letting Agent.

Possibly, but it depends on whether the OP signed a legally binding tenancy on the property and whether anyone else has been resident in the property during this period.

neverdespairgirl

CIS wrote: »

I was possibly being too basic on my reply, the OP cannot challenge the actual issuing liability order by contacting the magistrates court and asking for an re-hearing of the original case, they can however, if they wish, challenge the order in the high court which can involve asking a magistrate to allow an appeal to the high court for a re-consideration of the issuing of the order.

Surely there's a statutory declaration route, that none of the notices were received?