Travel Agents Say MoneySaving Is Immoral!

t_i_g_e_rr

I liked to save money before, but a year of reading this site has unfortunately resulted in a violent allergy. I now feel slightly sick if I see "full price", and if I find out I paid more than I had too, I'm hospitalised. I know I'm bad, and I've tried counselling with rich sales reps, but getting the cheapest price is the only way that works for me. I hope companies begin to understand this ailment. If it spreads throughout the country, they may begin putting warnings on products like, "This holiday may contain traces of overpriced hidden extras".

Sales people surely understand that they are in a market economy. Take for example Mini's (the car). So many people want them that if you ask for a discount you're told "do you want a Mini or not" (please let me know if this isn't true because I would like one!). The same is not true of all cars, and also not true of most holidays. I think it is worth paying for good service, but often this doesn't come with high prices. No doubt the people who offer the cheapest holidays will be over the moon with all the extra sales this TV program will give them!

TRAVELMAN_2

Hello all,
been reading (& posting!) with interest on this topic. Most of you will know that I agree with a lot of what Martin say's in relation to PACKAGE holidays.

But..please....can we tone down the venom being aimed at Agents?! We're just people like you....(!!!)

A few points-a previous poster has said 'my Winter holiday is £347' if i wait 2 months or so it'll be about £200....WRONG! Whilst you may have got this price last year the 'late' price depends on demand & can even go over brochure price! A prime example is the last few weeks for Egypt/canaries-on lates prices a good 35% higher than last year-reason-MORE demand & also lot's of re-bookings from people who had booked to go to Asia.

Also-another poster said 'if its £200 I bet they still make a profit'...well...in most cases WRONG. Most profit is made in Peak Season & low season deals ARE often sold at a loss.

I'm saying this again....by the time a lot of people ring round late deals can GO or change in price! Also-good point by previous (or previous bar 1) poster about booking your own accom-MAKE SURE COMPANY IS REGISTERED (IE HAS A REGISTERED COMPANY OFFICE) in the Uk-if not-you have NO cover with any problems. Some people on here book direct with owners-hey-that's cool-BUT a big risk. You pay a deposit on the view of a web-site??!! You could get there & have no room-apartment does not exist, etc....Why not pay about a tenner a head more & book thru an accom only company UK REGISTERED for peace of mind??!

Beleive me-in July/August in places such as majorca 'bumping' ie greedy hotel owners takes more from an 'ad hoc' customer on the ground & 'bump' or overbook the pre-paids-IT HAPPENS & if you have kids what a nightmare!

I agree-packaging is the way to go but guys/gals-see the wood for the trees re; having a safe, financially secure (& Hotel secure!) trip-don't be blinded by obsessive moneysaving!

Chris

Ps Just booked an MSER who found flights direct with Thomas Cooks & Hotel through Hotelopia-we were still a good £40 cheaper than the customer could get(Atol means nett direct rates in euros-not available to the public-only to tour ops) but with the benefit of ATOL protection. Who says we don't need agents-customer is delighted with the price.

bs7

peejay67 wrote:

Will you go to the manager and say "ER...LIdl are doing potatoes for 99p..will you match it?" Course you wouldnt.

We are probably one ofthe few industries where you can get free advice and shop around for a deal, with free literature to boot. Can you imagine going into a solicitor getting free advice, using his services and then saying thanks for the advice but I'll use Jo Bloggs down the road. I think youd still get a bill from that solicitor.

Firstly, i think you seriously underestimate the lengths some MSErs will go to get the best deal possible.

There are quite a few other industries that do the same - the most obvious by far is the financial services industries. Comparing Travel Agents to Independent Financial Advisers is quite apt. They don't charge the customer for their advice but will try and sort them out with the best possible 'deal'. However, they have strict standards and adhere to them - something with the whole travel industry is tarnished with. Whilst you are keen to try and suggest you have morals i'm affraid your entire industry has ripped so many people off for so long that it's difficult to change people's opinions.

Although i would note that there are some great advantages in the independent travel agent as you have pointed out. The greatest, in my opinion, is having someone (who might care) that you can complain to. Whilst everyone keeps mentioning the benefit of the internet - i'd urge anyone to call up any of the travel sites before booking - ebookers for example, seems to have it's call centre's based overseas - try complaining and you struggle to understand them let alone get anywhere (i'm talking from personally experience - i gave up complaining because i simply couldn't understand any of the staff on the phone).

TRAVELMAN wrote:

An interesting aside here....one of my regulars-a very astute Yorkshire Lady-ALWAYS checks prices in Huddersfield Town centre with all 5 or so Agents-playing one off against the other (& then seeing what I can do!!!). This was yesterday....THREE of them point blank said 'no-we don't haggle/discount', 2 did, but when she went back to the 1st one with the 2nd Agents price they said-'sorry-we've people waiting who need advice, we haven't got time to play games-this is our price-do you want it??!'.

She asked them to double check the price-HOLIDAY HAD GONE. So.....wasted time for customer...Agents NOT playing the game-holiday lost! I got her fixed up (School feb Half-Term) in the end-but the apartment was not 100% in the location she wanted.

Surely a lesson there....???!!!

Yes - an interesting lesson - that Travel Agents are willing to collude to price fix! I think some obviously think we live in some sort of socialist society and people should give them money for nothing.

grant1wish wrote:

I applied the 'martin' school of thinking when buying a brand new car. [...]
I know it is slightly off subject, but just wanted to show how haggling applies to most consumer products these days.

i don't think it's off topic - i reckon that's precisely the point. The consumer has choice and has an obligation to themselves to attempt to get the best deal possible for themselves.

TRAVELMAN wrote:

But..please....can we tone down the venom being aimed at Agents?! We're just people like you....(!!!)

[...]

low season deals ARE often sold at a loss.

[...]

Atol means nett direct rates in euros-not available to the public-only to tour ops

You reep what you sow. The industry and screwed the man on the street over for so long - and you can't deny that you'll occasionally make a 'killing' on some holidays and be laughing all the way to the bank. You can't therefore turn around and complain that people despise the entire industry.

The Travel Agents that have posted have been keen to mention their expertise and hardwork but unfortunately most people's experience of Travel Agents is via the larger Travel Agents where a school leaver with an IQ of a pet cat uses a computer to simply input the data and inform the customer of the price.

If you are making a loss on holidays then you really can't be too bright - surely you would simply refuse to sell that holiday?!?!?!

And as for the ATOL prices in euros - that's not something to boast about - it just goes to show that the industry licencing authority even endorses this anti-competitive practice: why shouldn't the consumer be able to get the best deal possible - why should any industry be able to keep the consumer from taking advantage of every possible avenue.

Marigold123

Travelman, PJ, Joelle and others I've forgotten - Don't worry, I'm sure most people posting here do realise there is good and bad in every industry, (and you are obviously among the good guys!) It's a pity that not all players in the travel industry are as conscientious or as knowledgeable.

Marigold123

bs7 wrote:

Although i would note that there are some great advantages in the independent travel agent as you have pointed out. The greatest, in my opinion, is having someone (who might care) that you can complain to. Whilst everyone keeps mentioning the benefit of the internet - i'd urge anyone to call up any of the travel sites before booking - ebookers for example, seems to have it's call centre's based overseas - try complaining and you struggle to understand them let alone get anywhere (i'm talking from personally experience - i gave up complaining because i simply couldn't understand any of the staff on the phone).

Ah that would be the wonderful phenomenon of the Bangalore call centre. There are more and more of those cropping up these days.

The first time I got through to one was really weird. Your call gets diverted to some place in India, where they've got all these lads whose english accent is far better than their experience or understanding of the language. As a result, I didn't realise I was talking to someone whose first language wasn't english; I thought the guy was, (I don't know, american or canadian or something, but just really weird).

Because he didn't use typical english language patterns he came over as really rude and strange, and also seemed to misunderstand nearly everything I said.

If he had given me any kind of hint that he was struggling, I would have phrased my enquiry completely differently. Instead, he soldiered on, trying to maintain the illusion I was speaking to a UK call centre, and I was still under the impression that he could understand me properly, but was being really difficult. We gradually got more and more annoyed with each other until he put the phone down on me. (What brilliant customer relations training those poor guys must have had!)

I was furious, but the penny still didn't drop until I mentioned it to my b/f, who said I had probably been talking to someone in Bangalore. I had never heard of the place, and thought he meant somewhere in Wales!

I hope this trend doesn't last much longer. Companies try to save money by locating their call centre in India to take advantage of cheap labour costs, but it really doesn't work. People hate it. And I don't imagine their employees like it much either.

TRAVELMAN_2

Bs7.....Sorry-what a load of crap you've posted! Sorry to swear,,,,Are you sutr your post is not a wind-up?

'Quote' ' i'm affraid your entire industry has ripped so many people off for so long that it's difficult to change people's opinions.'

Please evidence your argument-any sane person can't make a sweeping statement like this without backing it up.

'Quote'
'Yes - an interesting lesson - that Travel Agents are willing to collude to price fix! I think some obviously think we live in some sort of socialist society and people should give them money for nothing.'

Price-fix? Colluding? Are you sure you've not been drinking? X-files? Conspiricy theories? PLEASE! THE POINT OF THIS WAS THAT THE HOLIDAY HAD SOLD BECAUSE SHE'S SPENT TOO LONG TRYING TO 'PLAY THE GAME' a risk no-noe has acknowledged. Als-the Agents had dropped to their lowest price& wouldn't go any lower-they all have the right to do this.

'Quote' Although i would note that there are some great advantages in the independent travel agent as you have pointed out. The greatest, in my opinion, is having someone (who might care) that you can complain to.

There really is no answer to the above statement & any sane MSE'r will agree.

'Quote'

You can't therefore turn around and complain that people despise the entire industry

Very level-headed-any evidence?

'Quote'

And as for the ATOL prices in euros - that's not something to boast about - it just goes to show that the industry licencing authority even endorses this anti-competitive practice: why shouldn't the consumer be able to get the best deal possible - why should any industry be able to keep the consumer from taking advantage of every possible avenue.

Sorry-IT IS SOMETHING TO BOAST ABOUT-by giving these rates to ATOL holders who will properly bond a holiday to protect their customers & (AND THIS IS THE MONEYSAVING BIT) at prices LESS than anyone can get on the web directly-WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS? Please ask Phil an MSE'R who's booked using ATOL rates after spending hours calling round/checking the web-he's happy-we're happy, the holiday is protected-customer has cheapest price-job done.

I speak to a lot of MSE'R'S who are nice, level headed people who want a deal. Strikes me some people on this board are so anal with regard to their thoughts on us 'travel Agent badies' & our 'industry' & are just obsessed to a pyschotic degree with money saving that they need help. The previous post demonstrates this.

My above comments are in defence of young staff I quote ' via the larger Travel Agents where a school leaver with an IQ of a pet cat ' with low IQ's. Obviously as they have very low IQ's I'm putting in my last comments just for them.

PLEASE tell me your post was a wind-up or you've been drinking??!

bs7

@ Travelman you seem to be a little biased and completely unobjective when it comes to this issue.

If you had read my earlier post regarding Thomas Cook you would note my comments regarding how despite a massive downturn in holiday sales last financial year Thomas Cook's UK arm still managed to profit. The UK is undoubtedly the rip off capital of Europe. You are insane to suggest otherwise and you know it - you're simply arguing for the sake of it.

Where several firms all receive a guide price from an operator and are unwilling to budge regarding the price - such actions are suggestive of some form of collusion. A free market economy is not meant to work that way. There is meant to be competition. That's not a conspiracy theory - that's fact - and investigations have in the past been launched with regards to similar actions and the new car industry.


"There really is no answer to the above statement & any sane MSE'r will agree."
I have no idea what you're on about but there aren't too many advantages to the independent travel agent other than the 'personal touch' and perhaps the price. I was simply acknowledging that there was the advantage of having someone to complain to and you decided to make an argument out of that for the sake of it too.

What's all this about "evidence" - none of us have any evidence of all this hardwork you claim to do. The way you go on would suggest you are running a charity - please correct me if i'm wrong but you make a reasonable profit from being a Travel Agent - you're not doing it for the sake of it? So go on - give us the "evidence" regarding all the losses you mad last year - no? - you got paid a wage/salary/income?!?!
Very level-headed indeed - talk about biting the hand that feeds you!


You've still not given me a reason why the ATOL pricing system should not be opened up to the consumers. You are go on and on and on about being protected by ATOL BUT 1) customers may be willing to take the risk themselves and 2) individuals can take insurance out themselves in case of non-performance of the contract.
So no profit was made from Phil's holiday then!?!?! The fact of the matter is that the ATOL argument simply exists to provide an excuse for the continuing existance of Travel Agents - consumers could do it themselves BUT they'd then avoid paying a middleman.

You don't seem to be in touch with reality - for the consumer the middleman means added expenses - it is in the consumer's interest to avoid as many middlemen as possible.
You attitude to "young staff" in Travel Agents doesn't seem to match the reality either - i'm sure there are many MSErs that will agree that some of the service received is beyond belief.

Your post simply demonstrates the lengths Travel Agents will attempt to go to try and argue that paying you to either look up ATOL's prices or a few brouchers is a good thing.

TRAVELMAN_2

My my...you have got the bit between the teeth have you not about rip-off Britain? Things are only a 'rip-off' if the person buting is not happy.

Why do you seem annoyed/dismayed that thomas Cook made a profit? What's wrong with making a profit?

Yes...of course some money is made when holidays are sold.

One point you've forgotten is the protection ATOL gives. How would you like if if, having booked your low-cost flight you arrive at said Hotel & a)-no room, b)-screaming kids who've been up 1/2 the night & c)-The company that's provided your accom can't be contacted or has gone bust!

The ATOL rates are for Tour Op's who guarantee a certain number of bodies-hence the rates. Bear in mind that a)-MANY MANY people do not have hours to find the best deal by trawling the net & b) A lot of people DON'T WANT TO do this-they'd rather others do it for them & c)-IT'S CHEAPER for the customer hence all are happy! Also you mention insurance to cover failed contracts-yes-granted but that won't help in situations like the one in the previous paragraph. Think about the ATOL rates being opened up to the public-the reason they are so cheap is that a)they are guaranteed 'x' number of people (with financial penalties/clawbacks if no of people are not reached for the Tour Ops) so they give a better nett cost, b)-They have established points of contact-ie one phone number for a head office of each company-usually with a foreign language speaker-do you not think the costs would rise if foreign language speakers had to call 1000's of direct punters? c)-If YOU booked a holdiay at 'X' price & received a price increase of £100 as the quota was not met would you pay it??! This is the risk Tour Op's take to secure these rates. I think it explains why they're not open to the world & his dog.

Also-your independant Agents thing-only good for someone to complain to if need be. What about the 1000's of people who come to them for advice or can't be bothered to spend hours on the net? Whilst i work from home & don't get callers at the door I'm sure Agents like Pee-Jay would be mortified by your comments.

What you're saying is like 'all insurance's should be sold at nett' (meaning 1000's of jobs lost) 'all cars should have no profit in them & be sold at nett' (no garages-many job losses)....you get my point.

BS-I admire your opinions on 'rip-off britain' but ultimately the consumer decides what THEY want to pay & if an ATOL package is cheapest for them & cheaper than all other quotes then everyones a winner!

We're too far away from the point-Martin say's haggle for PACKAGE hols-& you'll see from my posts that I agree with most of that.

Kind regards,

Chris

bs7

TRAVELMAN wrote:

Why do you seem annoyed/dismayed that thomas Cook made a profit? What's wrong with making a profit?

I have no problem with them making a profit BUT it's very odd that despite globally making massive loses (over 200million euros) - they still managed a profit in the UK! It just goes to show that the profit margins in the UK are enough to sustain a profit in the UK no matter what state the industry is in. And the profits paid for by UK customers are therefore paying for the loses sustained in other countries.


Chris, i'm not disagreeing - and i think more people should seek the advice of an independent travel agent (indeed despite what i suspect you think i'm saying - i'd be more likely to contact one than going through the likes of ebookers/travelbag again) - my problem is that a lot of people are fobbed off by the bigger travel agents - and you will agree that their service can be dismal. The concept of 'you get what you pay for' doesn't seem to hold true: they seem to charge more and give less.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to make a reasonable profit BUT the industry cannot complain where people are advised to take steps to attempt to limit their costs (lower profits is not the goal, a cheaper price for the consumer is).

MSE_Martin

Just a slight note from me. My main focus is on the limited number of major travel agents all of whom are owned my the limited number of major tour operators. They all sell each others holidays - its a commodity good - why shouldn't the price be lowered.

Independent agents who customer build good holidays are a different breed - i'm not saying you shouldn't try and ensure the cheapest price, yet haggling isn't quite the same outside the package market.

As to the point about buying protection - my suggestion is simply 'make sure you get exactly the same package holiday' but at a cheaper price. I wasn't talking about making a DIY package, but buying the tour operators packages at a lower price.

Martin