Do you use a livery?

lostinrates

I used o do liveries and am considering doing them again.

I used to charge the same winter/or summer, a flat fee (minus shoes/vet's bills/repairs to rugs or tack/ feed or in some cases feed included but not supplements). e.g. it was £x a day, and how much the bill was depended on the days in a month..but was the same daily rate whatever the month. I might charge extra for things like exercising or pulling etc if not included in the agreement at the beginning but I was asked to do it. if included then the owner would not be expected to have to worry or chase This meant I was out of pocket in winter, but putting away some in summer. The fulls lived in with turnout or out as weather dictated as mine did. This really, to my mind, with horses with no health conditions, is the best way to manage a group of horses: one horse alone coming in because the owner wants it would be very unhappy while everything else is outside.

It seems to me livery options have become confused...I too notice, full livery is no longer ''full'' livery, and part livery seems to be considered assisted diy, which also covers a week day full livery/weekend diy option. It makes it much harder for people trying to choose the right yard. For full, IMO, you shouldn't have to do anything...the basic needs of your horse are met.

Fwiw I would only accept full liveries, assisted DIY liveries (which I feed/put in/out) or DIYs who can commit to being up when others are fed/put in/out. I feel very strongly that horses are happier as individuals when the ''group'' is happy.

Here (south of England) I could not offer true full livery at £80pw. I would be making a loss most of the year.

This year we are making hay, and while supply won't be a problem for us contractors fees are significantly higher than last time I made hay (eight years ago). That has to be translated to the costs...I don't expect to make a profit, but don't want to make a loss on the hay either.

Good quality straw, as opposed to very dusty rain on straw HAS been quite hard to get hold of here this year....I'd rather have a healthy horse turned out than in on dusty straw.

Despite all of this is not what was agreed. I would never take or put a horse on livery without written contract.

glowgirl_2

We pay £16 per week diy grass livery, obviously includes use of school etc. We have our name down for a stable (livery is very limited in my area) and that will cost us £28 per week when we get it, still diy though. Wormers, farriers etc are our responsabilty, I like it at the moment becuase we are new to horse ownership and get lots of advice and help from more experienced owners, however when the time is right we shall be renting/buying a field and having our own non commercial yard.

orlao

I think lostinrates has hit the nail on the head - have a written contract - if you think about it you wouldn't spend over £4k pa on anything else without having all the details in writing!

In saying that, I've never had a contract in nearly 30 years of horse ownership but I have heard of various local yards starting to use them....

lostinrates

orlao wrote: »

I think lostinrates has hit the nail on the head - have a written contract - if you think about it you wouldn't spend over £4k pa on anything else without having all the details in writing!

In saying that, I've never had a contract in nearly 30 years of horse ownership but I have heard of various local yards starting to use them....

I think maybe its filtering down from racing/tb competition yards and studs. My tentative enquiries suggest that my insurers would require it now. It protects both parties in case of complaint or misunderstanding. With running such a business being increasingly expensive I expect the professional yards to have to get more professional, and costs to rise to meet the costs of good and traceable staff (not cash in hand), taxes and provision or the service to clients, and also expect more private yards to offer a place to help offset costs. Although managing costs is VITAL with such an expensive hobby, personally I'd rather have a horse somewhere where staff were qualified/experienced, and ensured, and with a low staff turnover, and a good provision that put the horses needs first.

orlao

Very true LiR

IMHO it's about time that equine businesses were run professionally rather than as "pin" money or as a hobby that horse owners are kind enough to fund as and when it suits the supplier:mad:

Yes, I think prices will rise especially when the uninsured, non tax paying, cash in hand places finally (eventually?) cannot keep prices artificially low as they are undercutting the yards that are properly run. Funnily enough, I'm not a huge supporter of regulation and the red tape that comes with it but I'm sick to my back teeth of seeing dangerous, shoddily run and amateur yards passing themselves off as something different and taking customers money under false pretences.....but with something as large as a horse it is both difficult, risky, unsettling and expensive to move them regularly....so these types of businesses will be economical with the truth upon enquiry and once they have hooked the livery know that they will stay for at least a few months. In fairness, the great majority of these types of YO don't mean to lie but are such poor managers (for want of a better word) that they really couldn't organise the proverbial in a brewery and consistantly give incorrect info to their clients.

TBH, it's got to the stage in my area that I will probably not have another riding horse (to replace mine who is near to retirement) until I can source and afford a private facility where I can keep my animals to my standards - and those standards are not that high btw, all I want is a field, shelter, water and some storage...

Apologies for the rant:o it's a bit of a sore subject at the moment.

lostinrates

orlao wrote: »

Very true LiR

IMHO it's about time that equine businesses were run professionally rather than as "pin" money or as a hobby that horse owners are kind enough to fund as and when it suits the supplier:mad:

Yes, I think prices will rise especially when the uninsured, non tax paying, cash in hand places finally (eventually?) cannot keep prices artificially low as they are undercutting the yards that are properly run. Funnily enough, I'm not a huge supporter of regulation and the red tape that comes with it but I'm sick to my back teeth of seeing dangerous, shoddily run and amateur yards passing themselves off as something different and taking customers money under false pretences.....but with something as large as a horse it is both difficult, risky, unsettling and expensive to move them regularly....so these types of businesses will be economical with the truth upon enquiry and once they have hooked the livery know that they will stay for at least a few months. In fairness, the great majority of these types of YO don't mean to lie but are such poor managers (for want of a better word) that they really couldn't organise the proverbial in a brewery and consistantly give incorrect info to their clients.

TBH, it's got to the stage in my area that I will probably not have another riding horse (to replace mine who is near to retirement) until I can source and afford a private facility where I can keep my animals to my standards - and those standards are not that high btw, all I want is a field, shelter, water and some storage...

Apologies for the rant:o it's a bit of a sore subject at the moment.

Its not just yards, its expectation of cost/provision from clients. A client who wanted a field shelter, grass and some storage, is prepared to comply with worm counts/worming, accepts that at some points the horse might need to come in (in extreme whether, prolonged rain etc) is ideal. My hesitation about diys is the ''I will poo pick twice a week'' brigade who then...don't. I'd rather charge more and allow extra time to do it myself/by any staff I employ...so not quite diy....

WolfSong2000

hhhmmm...I used to work for a few livery yards as a kid. with the exception of one place, I was utterly taken advantage of, but that's beside the point.

If you're looking at a livery yard, I'd recommend volunteering your services there for a wee while just to see if you're happy with how the place is run. Yes, it's taking up your time, but as others have expressed - horses usually mean a great deal to their owners. If you can't do this, take time to wander round - are the horses happy and content, what is the water supply like - have the fields been poo-picked, etc?

The yard I spent most of my time at (a few years) was a small one...okay facilities, and that was about £75 p/w full livery about 10 years ago. Mind you, it was myself and the owner running it, and she never paid me (was meant to be £15 p/w...long story), so she must have earned a tidy little profit as I was there every evening after school and all day weekends and holidays, including christmas day, to take care of the horses.

I would have to say, though, given the choice, if I had a horse I'd want it outside as much as possible. Horses get very bored in stables, plus I have had to deal with an expensive dressage horse who had never been let loose in a field - it was always stable or exercise, which was 90% in a menage, and the horse was a lunatic. Never felt safe riding him and he was really messed up in the head. The vast majority of horses can stay out 24/7 most of the year (unless laminitic, etc) and it's much better for their psychological wellbeing.

However, the OP saying they're being charged full livery prices for grass livery - that's not right and you really need to talk to the yard owner about that.

orlao

lostinrates wrote: »

Its not just yards, its expectation of cost/provision from clients. A client who wanted a field shelter, grass and some storage, is prepared to comply with worm counts/worming, accepts that at some points the horse might need to come in (in extreme whether, prolonged rain etc) is ideal. My hesitation about diys is the ''I will poo pick twice a week'' brigade who then...don't. I'd rather charge more and allow extra time to do it myself/by any staff I employ...so not quite diy....

I can see your point - and also that what you can charge for DIY barely covers your fixed costs so the services provided have to be your profit....

trudij

I am thinking about moving my horse in the autumn, because the lady I share with does my head in.(though I probably do hers in too with my wanting to worm when the count says they need it, and my wanting the field poo picked as often as possible,and my thinking that once a week isnt enough to check on your horse...) Its a very long story, which would turn into a rant and a half if I started, so I wont.... suffice to say that I wish I could go back where I was before I moved away, I could keep myself to myself, all the chores were shared between me and my friend,and it was just perfect....

LIR, can mine move to yours?? It sounds perfect and what Id love to find round here !!!!

lostinrates

orlao wrote: »

I can see your point - and also that what you can charge for DIY barely covers your fixed costs so the services provided have to be your profit....

Barely? It won't.

Here hay is, at the very cheapest £3 a bale, straw about £2.00 at the very cheapest. Presuming an averagely mucky horse eating not quite ad lib you have half a bale of each gone daily... (being mean, and I actually totally ad lib where possible, ie for non fatties)

so £2.50 a day ?

Plus (using BHS guide times) half an hour for a muck out, half an hour for a groom...
an hour at minimum wage.

Poo picking is harder to quantity. Lets say about an hour a day, but for all the horses, not just the livery in question. And checking water, fences, and for nasty weeds So an hourish a week?

Lets assume, another hour a week doing feet, mixing feeds, checking over and cleaning tack. In winter I reckon its fair to allow at least an hour a week, if not more, for daily cleaning and drying legs? Include in this a late night check, yard sweeping, time spent reviewing feeds....again divided between horses.

so far...£17.5 plus (most horses on ad lib hay will eat more)...£52.80 at 9 hours minimum wage. Nothing so far for business rates, time spent ordering feed, booking and waiting for blacksmiths, dentists vets, the petrol spent taking rugs in to be repaired...nothing AT ALL for facility maintenance or provision, insurances, ....and its already over £70 a week...I could go on, and on,

best MONEY maker is diy. Best provision of services might be full (making sure horses really ARE wormed/worm counted, are happy, are fed well, that nothing goes walking in tack room). So the ideal situation for a diy might be to be only one, or one of few on a full livery yard..with access to training/facilities if required, and the knowledge that things are being truely overseen by a yard owner/manager.