Help - Is this discrimation ?

dickydonkin

Fly_Baby wrote: »

Well, I am female and if I worked in a supermarket and my manager asked me to wear my hair in a ponytail instead of leaving them loose or to avoid bright lipstick in order to maintain a well-presented image of the store personnel - I would not think of demanding to see a company policy and would just do what I am asked.

Maybe I am just a person that takes her jobs seriously.

Which is fine - provided the 'policy' (existing or otherwise) is consistent - i.e. APPLIES TO EVERYONE which I understand is the main gripe of the OP.

The store has made a rod for their own back by allowing the lad to wear his stubble for a prolonged period of time which is now deemed to be unkempt (again - a subjective assertion by the manager).

Maybe I am just a person that takes her jobs seriously

I suspect the OP and her son also takes his job seriously - all she was doing was asking a question, however, judging from some of the sanctimonious responses on here, it appears that the messenger has been well and truly shot!

He's not growing a beard. He just can't be bothered to shave like most boys of his age. It's not a religious issue. It's a lazy issue.

No generalisation here it seems. Perhaps a fashion issue? So you know the lad then? I refer to my comments above!

Steel_2

dpassmore wrote: »

No generalisation here it seems. Perhaps a fashion issue? So you know the lad then? I refer to my comments above!

I don't care whether stubble is fashionable or not. He's in a corporate environment and the requirements of his employer come before fashion. The majority of employers see stubble as a sign of poor grooming. In fact many people - employers or not - see stubble as poor grooming.

All OP's son is going to do is prompt an insertion into the existing policy with the issue of stubble specifically mentioned as unacceptable. Then he's got nowhere to go but shave or lose his job (and probably risk irritating his co-workers in the process). Perhaps the HR manager hasn't taken exception to anyone else because no-one else has stubble or stubble that looks as untidy as his (although the fact that one of his co-workers left suggests that is not the case)? Or maybe someone higher up has spotted the OP's son and told the HR manager to sort the situation out. Alternatively it might be that the previous HR manager was just weak and didn't want to confront those with stubble about it hence the reason it has gone on so long. No-one knows what goes on behind closed doors in upper management. This HR manager might be gone within six months and so will her feelings about stubble, but a policy change will stay there.

This lad wants to leave a job over a bit of stubble? Stupid. Very, very stupid considering how many people are desperate for jobs out there. You have to know when to pick your battles in the workplace, and do so in the full knowledge of the risks and rewards. This one is not worth the aggro or the outcome to OP's son. if he continues to be defiant he risks a written warning, which will stay on his work record and be mentioned if he needs a reference in the future. Or if he's on a contract it may not be renewed.

There's too many people who can't see the wood for the trees.

dickydonkin

Steel wrote: »

I don't care whether stubble is fashionable or not. He's in a corporate environment and the requirements of his employer come before fashion. The majority of employers see stubble as a sign of poor grooming. In fact many people - employers or not - see stubble as poor grooming.

All OP's son is going to do is prompt an insertion into the existing policy with the issue of stubble specifically mentioned as unacceptable. Then he's got nowhere to go but shave or lose his job (and probably risk irritating his co-workers in the process). Perhaps the HR manager hasn't taken exception to anyone else because no-one else has stubble or stubble that looks as untidy as his (although the fact that one of his co-workers left suggests that is not the case)? Or maybe someone higher up has spotted the OP's son and told the HR manager to sort the situation out. Alternatively it might be that the previous HR manager was just weak and didn't want to confront those with stubble about it hence the reason it has gone on so long. No-one knows what goes on behind closed doors in upper management. This HR manager might be gone within six months and so will her feelings about stubble, but a policy change will stay there.

This lad wants to leave a job over a bit of stubble? Stupid. Very, very stupid considering how many people are desperate for jobs out there. You have to know when to pick your battles in the workplace, and do so in the full knowledge of the risks and rewards. This one is not worth the aggro or the outcome to OP's son. if he continues to be defiant he risks a written warning, which will stay on his work record and be mentioned if he needs a reference in the future. Or if he's on a contract it may not be renewed.

There's too many people who can't see the wood for the trees.

Look - for the umpteenth time, I have no issues where unambiguous policies exist and if the OP's sons contract or company policy defines that stubble is unacceptable then the OP's son is playing a risky game by refusing to shave off his stubble. That cannot be disputed.

However, the OP has clearly indicated that:

"In the terms of his contract it just states that employees should be clean and tidy at all times, and he is.

Certainly when I have introduced policies, I have made sure that;

1) any new starter is made fully aware of company requirements
2) all existing staff are collectively made aware of any impending changes in company requirements
3) monitoring staff to ensure policies are being adhered to

Who defines 'clean and tidy'?

The contract should have elaborated on this requirement as we all have different definitions of 'clean & tidy'. This seems to be the case here as the former manager seems to have no issues with stubble wheras the new one does.

It is unfair to suggest the previous manager as being 'weak' as this accusation cannot be substantiated by the accuser and it may just be a case where the former manager believed the OP's son was indeed clean and tidy.

I agree with the majority of posters here that it really is not worth losing a job over, but it seems the supermarket needs to define requirements in their policy to enable the manager to make an objective decision as opposed to a subjective judgement.

It would make it so much easier for all concerned.

joeblack066

This is really simple.
He wants his job, then he does as he's told. Thats life.
He wants his designer stubble, he finds a job where they don't mind it.
We live in a society where some people think they're doing the employer a favour by turning up!
Some of the work I do requires me to be 'suited and booted' which can be uncomfortable in the heat but guess what? Thats what I do because thats what they want, and they pay my invoices!!
As Alexsander Orlov would say......"Simples"!!

emmell

This may have been mentioned earlier (I haven't kept up with the thread), but the retail company I worked for had different managers come and go and each one interpreted rules differently, we just went with the flow.
Each manager that came seemed to want to change everything that had become routine to us all. We used to take it with a pinch of salt because we knew it was only a matter of time before another ' jumped up tin pot hitler' would come along.
On the subject of 'stubble' I think it looks untidy, especially in a food enviroment. But I have a son who's just as bad, he starts the week off with a nice clean baby face and by friday he's got a beard (with a very untidy scruffy phase inbetween). I always tell him he looks cleaner and smarter shaved. But if he came to my house and said I'm leaving work because I've got to shave, me and his dad would go up the wall.
ML.

BOB_A_H

annaabc wrote: »

Thanks for your reply.

But, is it right to just accept it when the man standing next to him has a beard and that is OK because he is a Muslim?

The dress code is - a full uniform - clean hands and nails ,(although he wears gloves), the correct foot wear. For women - hair tied back, no nail varnish, no jewellery. No body piecing. Clean and tidy appearance at all times. Other than a bit of stubble everything is OK.

My son thought it was a joke at first and has said 'OK I will grow a full beard then and change my faith' to which they have replied 'don't be silly you are not taking this serioulsy, we have our targets to achieve and your appearance could give us negative points'

This is about the mystery shopper giving points to a member of staff for their service and their general appearance. If the man with the beard served the mystery shopper would she deduct points because of his beard if she did not know he was a muslim or would she give points to my son because she thought 'oh he is growing a beard - he must be a Muslim'.

Should all staff now be labelled on their name tag with their religion in order not to be discriminated against.

Is does not seem right to me ?



As a very dark haired man with a heavy growh, the clean shaven look can be difficult to maintain.

I personaly would have to shave part way through the day. How practical would that be?

Your son should ask the obvious question, how do you grow a full beard without going through the stubble stage???

It is impossible I think they will find!

BOB_A_H

Material_Girl wrote: »

There is a difference though between stubble and a well kept beard.

It seems to me that the company is doing the right thing in maintaining a company dress code and respecting religious beliefs at the same time.

I guess if your son wants a nicely trimmed beard or convert to another religion that allows him to grow a beard (does he really though?) then he could grow it over his holidays so that if looks nice and groomed and not stubbly by the time he retuns to work.

The fact is that there may be quite a few customers at that store who do associate stubble with an unkempt appearance.

I think he is making his life at work more difficult than it needs to be. He should just shave and enjoy the improved relations at work with his line manager:)


As stated in another reply, can you or anybody else for that matter explain to me how to grow a beard without going through the stubble stage???

BOB_A_H

maninthestreet wrote: »

How do you get to having a 'well-kept, full beard', without going through the 'stubble' stage??



Sorry, made this point myself without reading your post.

It is however a very valid point.

bitsandpieces

Some things are worth fighting for - a bit of stubble isn't. If your son wants the job, he should shave.

Even if 'no stubble' wasn't specified in his contract and is a new rule, companies can make reasonable changes to requirements for staff appearance - e.g. introducing new uniforms. Requirements can vary for all kinds of reasons. Really not worth fighting and it's not any kind of prohibited discrimination - some people just think stubble looks messy.

BOB_A_H

Proc wrote: »

Your son sounds like a moany jobsworth.

Why does he insist on making life so hard for himself? Stubble looks scruffy, even well-kept stubble is questionable.

Just tell him to shave. It won't kill him.

It's always easy to spot the people that won't go far in life. They moan about their rights and kick up a fuss when asked to do something that's simple.


What planet?

Yea, David Beckham, Boris Becker and Clint Eastwood to name but a few got nowhere in their life`s for refusing to shave of stubble?

Is it not the HR manager who is the jobsworth? They are the one trying to be all "high and mighty"