Help - Is this discrimation ?

annaabc

dmg24 wrote: »

Have you ever heard the phrase religious intolerance? Perhaps you should take the time to understand the significance of the beard to those of the Islamic faith? Your views are rather bigoted.

Bigoted ? ( I must be related to Gillian Duffy) - I find that very offensive. You might as well call me racist as well.

I have not come here to be insulted. I have been honest with the facts and the situation. Maybe this situation is not about discrimination but equality?

Anyway, enough

Orville

annaabc wrote: »

Bigoted ? ( I must be related to Gillian Duffy) - I find that very offensive. You might as well call me racist as well.

I have not come here to be insulted. I have been honest with the facts and the situation. Maybe this situation is not about discrimination but equality?

Anyway, enough

I agree with you. Ignore dmg's comment (way off the mark).

If they interviewed him with a stubble and he has worked there for nearly two years without them saying anything then someone should have said something long before this. Like when he was offered the job, just a quick word in the ear with a smile saying have a shave. If this is a new policy just brought into effect then there should be some form of written notice given to every member of staff saying the dress code is changing and what the exact changes are.


As for comments about a well maintained beard compared to a stubble, i'd rather be served by someone with a bit of stubble then a beard where there is a greather chance of hairs falling off.

maninthestreet

How do you get to having a 'well-kept, full beard', without going through the 'stubble' stage??

heretolearn_2

It seems silly to leave a job over such a minor matter; but that's teenagers for you.

I can sort of see both sides. It's a new rule so it meets resistance as people understandably think that if it was acceptable in the past, it should be acceptable now.

But on the other side I can see the shop's point. There is a difference between someone who has a neat beard, and someone who just can't be bothered to shave every day and looks scruffy.

If it really matters to him then he should ask for clarification on the issue. Is the rule now that no facial hair is allowed unless required for religious reasons? Or is it that facial hair must be neat and well-groomed and not give the appearance of unshaven stubble or five o'clock shadow. The shop has to be consistant in this. But they can make this a new requirement.

But honestly, he needs to get a sense of proportion. Does he so desperately want a stubbley chin that he'd rather be unemployed?

Oh but I think it was wrong of them to go and ask him to shave using a general razor - unless that read wrong and he would have been given a new bic razor, it sounds as if there is just one laying around in the gents for them all to use - due to health risk from blood contamination.

Proc

Your son sounds like a moany jobsworth.

Why does he insist on making life so hard for himself? Stubble looks scruffy, even well-kept stubble is questionable.

Just tell him to shave. It won't kill him.

It's always easy to spot the people that won't go far in life. They moan about their rights and kick up a fuss when asked to do something that's simple.

dickydonkin

Orville wrote: »

I agree with you. Ignore dmg's comment (way off the mark).

If they interviewed him with a stubble and he has worked there for nearly two years without them saying anything then someone should have said something long before this. Like when he was offered the job, just a quick word in the ear with a smile saying have a shave. If this is a new policy just brought into effect then there should be some form of written notice given to every member of staff saying the dress code is changing and what the exact changes are.


As for comments about a well maintained beard compared to a stubble, i'd rather be served by someone with a bit of stubble then a beard where there is a greather chance of hairs falling off.

Absolutely!

Good post Orville.

You will find (irrespective of religion) that in many production units where food is manufactured, facial hair has to be covered by a snood like the one here .

It would be unlikely however, for such a requirement to be implemented in a supermarket although the risk of contamination is still there for unpackaged foods.

The majority of foods that have left their production areas that are now on display in the supermarket will have hygienic packaging encapsulating the foodstuffs that should prevent direct human contact and avoid contamination.

I suspect this is some form of knee jerk reaction following an audit or as alluded to, some mystery shopping thing, and if this was a new policy to be implemented, instead of 'picking on' one individual, the management should have had a briefing to ALL staff informing them of the 'new' policy requirements.

Personally, I do not like people with beards around food and I do not have pogonophobia either, but I wonder if it really is indeed an 'appearance' issue or a hygiene concern as who would deem who or what is 'unkempt'?

A young manageress may decide a young kid with a bit of stubble is attractive whereas a 'battleaxe' type of manager may not - it is all very subjective IMO without a defined policy.

When I started reading this thread, I knew religion would come into the equation and it is a touchy subject for many where exemptions have to be allowed on religious grounds - that is Britain today I'm afraid - like it or not!

Why does he insist on making life so hard for himself? Stubble looks scruffy, even well-kept stubble is questionable.

As I hinted at earlier, a battleaxe may deem stubble as unattractive.

honeypop

My DH used to work at ASDA, and the handbook did state clean shaven or a full beard only, not that exact wording but along those lines. The man your son is comparing to has a full beard and he is allowed it, regardless of being a Muslim, that's irrelevant, it could be a Christian with a full beard, he is also allowed it, so would anyone with no religious beliefs whatsoever, because they are all allowed a full beard if they wish.

So what he had stubble when they interviewed him, not everything about your apprearance at interview can be kept 'on the job'. Some people keep their piercings in for an interview but have to remove them at work, some men have long hair in an interview but are asked to cut it short for the job (as at my DH's current job, for security reasons), most people interview in a suit but wouldn't necessarily be ok wearing it in ther every day job.

OP your repetitive point about the other man being allowed facial hair because he is a muslim is silly, as I said above any man would be allowed facial hair in the form of a full beard. Maybe they should have said something to your son earlier but maybe they have been asked to crack down on this sort of thing after some feedback about staff in general.

Oldernotwiser

Be a parent to your son and don't support him in his stupidity, much less encourage him in seeing this as a sign of discrimination!

Clean shaven, - great, proper beard - acceptable. Stubble - scruffy and unkempt, however much you may think of it as "designer stubble".

SandC

Well I don't think the HR manager should have said anything about the guy with the beard being muslim because she has made the issue one about religious beliefs when it clearly isn't. The gentleman concerned probably has a beard because of his beliefs but your son could equally have a full beard for reasons of his own choosing. I think her wording is what has got people's backs up.

The problem with stubble is you cannot differentiate between a fashionable face growth and someone who just can't be bothered to shave every day. Some guys look good with a bit of shadow, or growth but some guys just look scruffy. So the new policy in the store is that guys must be clean shaven or full beard only.

dickydonkin

SandC wrote: »

Well I don't think the HR manager should have said anything about the guy with the beard being muslim because she has made the issue one about religious beliefs when it clearly isn't. The gentleman concerned probably has a beard because of his beliefs but your son could equally have a full beard for reasons of his own choosing. I think her wording is what has got people's backs up.

The problem with stubble is you cannot differentiate between a fashionable face growth and someone who just can't be bothered to shave every day. Some guys look good with a bit of shadow, or growth but some guys just look scruffy. So the new policy in the store is that guys must be clean shaven or full beard only.

One of the guys I used to work with a couple of years ago would start work at around 5:30 in the morning and by the end of the shift, he had the appearance of requiring a shave - I am not exagerating!

It would certainly be unreasonable to expect someone like this to shave during the day surely.

Now would he be deemed as 'unkempt' despite being clean and smart but his hormones are such that he possibly needs two shaves a day?

As I stated earlier, it is too subjective an issue without a defined policy.