Help - Is this discrimation ?

Martha66

SarEl wrote: »

Are we not getting somewhat (way) off the point here? Is an employer allowed to state that men must either be clean-shaven or have a full beard - yes. Is it discrimination in law (because that is all that matters) - no. So it comes down to a very simple position. The employee in question either complies with the employers "dress code" or they find another job.

But equally there is the question of timing. Even if an employer is allowed to stipulate men must be clean-shaven or have a full-beard, surely this must be stated clearly at the time the employee starts employment (and probably should be in written format). OP's son had been employed by the company for 2 years and only then was the issue raised. Can employers change their position at will with no warning and no written statement?

Not intending to be argumentative here - genuinely curious now.

As I've already said I don't think it worth losing your job over. Although I think it slight OTT to rule shelf-stacker can't have a stubble.

Googlewhacker

I can't believe the OP's son is even arguing this, it is irrelivant if he has not been told to shave for two years, if it is in the handbook and someone decides to uphold this then there is little arguement.

He could decide to grow a full bear but he would have to follow through with this obviously!

Martha66

Raksha wrote: »

As an ex professional Mystery shopper, I can say that if I am asked to notice if the staff member has a full beard or is clean shaven, I will note what degree of facial hair they may have - it's not up to me to discuss why they want to know that information. If the Company handbook says clean and tidy, then I would class neat designer stubble as clean and tidy - as other's have said, it's subjective - when does stubble become a beard?

Could your son lay his hands on a company handbook and ask for clarification of 'clean and tidy' (or whatever phrase they have used) from his HR dept?

Hi Raksha. Hope you didn't take offence at my comment that I felt only mystery shoppers would notice facial hair on supermarket employees!

I was just pointing out that as an everyday shopper, this sort of thing isn't my priority or even on my radar. Quite interesting really - the details you were asked to notice. Great way of improving one's observation skills!

Person_one

Googlewhacker wrote: »

I can't believe the OP's son is even arguing this, it is irrelivant if he has not been told to shave for two years, if it is in the handbook and someone decides to uphold this then there is little arguement.

He could decide to grow a full bear but he would have to follow through with this obviously!

I think taking a bear into work would just cause even more bad feeling, and probably a lot of mess.

celinepatricia

I think its just the new HR manager trying to stamp their authority... I used to work in a supermarket and I have never met managers like them.. they think there something else!!! and think theyre better than everybody else... a very strange breed of people..

SarEl

Martha66 wrote: »

But equally there is the question of timing. Even if an employer is allowed to stipulate men must be clean-shaven or have a full-beard, surely this must be stated clearly at the time the employee starts employment (and probably should be in written format). OP's son had been employed by the company for 2 years and only then was the issue raised. Can employers change their position at will with no warning and no written statement?

Not intending to be argumentative here - genuinely curious now.

As I've already said I don't think it worth losing your job over. Although I think it slight OTT to rule shelf-stacker can't have a stubble.

Timing is not, I'm afraid, at all relevant. Dress codes are not contractual per se - they are "standards" and an employer can vary them as they wish. Nor do they have to be in writing - it is sufficient that he has been informed that this is not acceptable. We might think that the employer might have something better to do with their time - and effort - but unfortunately what we think won't be the standard applied. In law this action does not amount to discrimination. That means that in practice, unless the employer dismissed "unreasonably" - for example without using their procedure, or for a first offence (since this is a minor transgression) then unfair dismissal doesn't come into play. But it would be relatively easy to make this a fair dismissal for refusal to obey a reasonable management instruction - and to do so in a relatively short space of time.

So it is very simple - dispose of the stubble or grow a beard.

liney

Men have been sent home to shave in our office, whilst others have had proper beards.

If someone said they were growing a beard, it would probably be tolerated for a short time, but realistically most 17 year olds aren't going to be growing a beard very quickly.

I do hope your son didn't make comments about changing his religion in front of the Muslim man: that could be deemed as very offensive, and might even result in a grievance.

tabskitten

I honestly cannot believe how nasty some people can be on this forum
The OP asked a question and suddenly is a bigot, racist and ignorant.

Nice place this....

Oldernotwiser

tabskitten wrote: »

I honestly cannot believe how nasty some people can be on this forum
The OP asked a question and suddenly is a bigot, racist and ignorant.

Nice place this....

Nobody has accused the OP of racism; the issue she is concerned about is one of religion.

I would be very worried if views such as the OP has expressed went unchallenged on MSE but fortunately they have been.

Material_Girl_2

I do actually agree that stubble can be a good look on the some man and I personally am not a fan of beards either, but that is not really the question here. The fact is that the company has a policy that does not allow stubble and that is the real issue here.

Has your son decided what he's going to do now? Do you think he's going to leave because of this? If you think he's not happy there anyway then maybe he's just looking for reason to leave?

What else would he do, are you hoping he's going to be discovered soon for model work? He could always apply to model agencies?:)