300,000 jobs in public sector face the axe

Andy_L

Altarf wrote: »

For the Executive Officers, given that the entry qualifications is two A levels, they almost certainly would not. So 73% of the Civil Service are definitely not in a 'professional' role, and another 19% are probably not.

Realistically though, you won't achive "direct entry" as an EO with just 2 A-levels anymore. The MoD ran a mass recruitment scheme for D-grades (their EO equivalent) 4-5 years ago: it was a graduate only recruitment scheme.

Altarf

Yes but they are only doing that to reduce the number of application forms that they need to look at, but the job itself will still be a 'two A level' job and not a 'degree' job.

thescouselander

Altarf wrote: »

I might agree 'some', but would disagree with 'a good number'. You are correct that some government Scientists and Engineers and some junior accountants work at this level, but (for example) do you think that there are that many Scientists and Engineers and junior accountants amongst the 11,820 HEO/SEOs working in the Ministry of Justice or the 16,820 working in HMRC?

Anyway irrespective of the above, of the 520,000 civil servants, 381,000 are Executive Officers Administative Officers or Administative Assistants, who I think we agree would not fall within the description of a 'professional' role.

Valid points. Unfortunately the spreadsheets don't really tell you who's who when it comes to the roles of particular civil servants. The category HEO/SEO is a pretty broad brush which could cover anything from a highly skilled specialist with post graduate qualifications to a office administrator with a couple of A-Levels. Its a pity they scrapped the specialist grade structure.

I would agree that Administrative Officers are probably not in the "Professional" category though.

Andy_L

Altarf wrote: »

Yes but they are only doing that to reduce the number of application forms that they need to look at, but the job itself will still be a 'two A level' job and not a 'degree' job.

Perhaps, although it could be the Civil Service's own views on the value of current qualifications? In the same way that, eg, you now need a Masters to become a Chartered Engineer, whilst it used to be a Bachelors (or even, back in the dim & distance past, an HND)

marklv

Altarf wrote: »

Yes but they are only doing that to reduce the number of application forms that they need to look at, but the job itself will still be a 'two A level' job and not a 'degree' job.

True, however this reflects the fact that there is huge excess of graduates at the moment, and that many are having to take jobs at a lower level than what they should be aiming for. The last time EO grades were mostly filled by school leavers was probably 30+ years ago.

marklv

Altarf wrote: »

It may be a nice round number, but it isn't the national average for public sector workers - http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_labour/Civil-service-tables-2009-final.xls Table 6

Regarding the arguments about 'professionals' vs 'pen pushers'

Table 1 in the above gives a good split of the roles and Table 26 of the salary for each role. Table 42 is interesting for the split of staff across government departments.

Senior Civil Service - 4,923 employees, median salary £77,440
Grade 6 and 7 - 34,947 employees, median salary £51,060
Senior and Higher Executive Officers - 100,423 employees, median salary £31,980
Executive Officers - 131,304 employees, median salary £23,540
Administrative Officers and Assistants - 249,989 employees, median salary £17,390

The 4,923 SCS and 34,947 Grade 6 and 7s would certainly fall within most peoples descriptions of a 'professional' role. It might be argued that some of the 100,423 SEO and HEOs fall within the definition, but I would not agree. For the Executive Officers, given that the entry qualifications is two A levels, they almost certainly would not. So 73% of the Civil Service are definitely not in a 'professional' role, and another 19% are probably not.

Therefore with 8% within the description of a 'professional' role and 73% definitely not, and for those 73% median earnings of £17,390 for the bulk of that group, I think that is a definite answer for 'professional' vs 'pen pusher'.

Civil service grades are generally managerial in orientation, not specialist. HEO is normally the first rung of a new trainee professional, with Grade 7/Principal as the 'main professional grade' for a fully qualified professional (e.g. accountant in the NAO).