Wooden or Laminate Flooring?...

tawnyowls

Stabilo wrote:

What should I expect to pay for 950 Quick Step fitted in a 8m X 4m room (South Yorkshire)?

Is DIY laminate floor fitting a bad idea for a novice?

For a living room with a 16 month old baby would you recommend 700, 800 or 950. I have read that 950 can be difficult to fit, although that could be down to the wood being warped.

Very hard to say - depends so much on the different areas of the country, and I've no experience of prices up north. You'd be best to get some quotes from fitters.

It really isn't that difficult. You need decent underlay, a good-quality adhesive (unless you get Uniclic, and patience. Taking off the skirting boards rather than using beading gives a better finish, but is more difficult and might lead to you needing to buy new skirting if it gets damaged. I would advise buying a couple of flooring clamps (they're straps with ratchets, and cost about a fiver each) to ensure a really tight fit between the boards, and plastic spacers to ensure an even expansion gap all the way round. Good instructions here: http://www.home-improvement.co.uk/laminate_flooring_2.htm

I wouldn't recommend the 700 for a high-wear area like a living room. You get the same length of guarantee for the 800 as the 950 (15 years, vs 10 years for the 700), and the 800 is usually a bit easier to lay.

Stabilo

tawnyowls wrote:

Very hard to say - depends so much on the different areas of the country, and I've no experience of prices up north. You'd be best to get some quotes from fitters.

It really isn't that difficult. You need decent underlay, a good-quality adhesive (unless you get Uniclic, and patience. Taking off the skirting boards rather than using beading gives a better finish, but is more difficult and might lead to you needing to buy new skirting if it gets damaged. I would advise buying a couple of flooring clamps (they're straps with ratchets, and cost about a fiver each) to ensure a really tight fit between the boards, and plastic spacers to ensure an even expansion gap all the way round. Good instructions here: http://www.home-improvement.co.uk/laminate_flooring_2.htm

I wouldn't recommend the 700 for a high-wear area like a living room. You get the same length of guarantee for the 800 as the 950 (15 years, vs 10 years for the 700), and the 800 is usually a bit easier to lay.

Thanks for your comments.

We have had quotes from £750 to £1050. We chose the £750 and they will be coming this week to fit it. It is the 8mm 'budget' Uniclic. They have said they do not need leave the laminate to stabilise to room temperature as they know how much it expands and provide spacing for expansion around the edge of the room. Is this ok? Even though the text books suggest stabilising to room temperature for 48 hours before fitting I just can't see tradesmen turning up 2 days before they are due to start to drop off the materials. In my experience you are lucky if they turn up at all :-)

They have also said that it will not require a plastic membrane even though it is being fitted on a concrete floor. The concrete is about 5 years old now. Not sure if he said the underlay had a plastic membrane or it simply didn't need one. Again is this ok?

Any other bad practises I should look for?

George_Bray

Stabilo

I don't like the sound of these guys' approach. I would both leave the laminate to stand in the room for 48 hours, absolute minimum, AND I would defintely fit a plastic membrane. The membrane is such low cost; why cut corners? Concrete is porous. Moisture can 'come and go' depending on the level of ground moisture, e.g. the concrete may be bone dry in mid-summer and damp after heavy rain in the winter.

As the fitters score zero out of two on these points, in my mind, I really wouldn't trust them on anything else.

But I hope I'm wrong.

Regards
George

Stabilo

George_Bray wrote:

Stabilo

I don't like the sound of these guys' approach. I would both leave the laminate to stand in the room for 48 hours, absolute minimum, AND I would defintely fit a plastic membrane. The membrane is such low cost; why cut corners? Concrete is porous. Moisture can 'come and go' depending on the level of ground moisture, e.g. the concrete may be bone dry in mid-summer and damp after heavy rain in the winter.

As the fitters score zero out of two on these points, in my mind, I really wouldn't trust them on anything else.

But I hope I'm wrong.

Regards
George

As I was going to fit the laminate myself I had read up on fitting before receiving the quotes. I was a bit wary when I heard some of his comments. I have ripped up half the existing carpet, grippers & underlay, rest to do before they arrive. The ground outside is quite damp but the concrete floor is perfectly dry, as I would expect with a house that is only 4 years old. Surely modern houses, even built by cowboys, shouldn't suffer with rising damp?

The quote was from a guy with several flooring shops rather than 'a guy in a pub' so to speak.

Does tawnyowls or others have any thoughts?

tawnyowls

Sorry, afraid I agree with George. It's all very well saying 'we know how much it expands', but unless you know exactly what the moisture level is in a particular house, you can't possibly work that out, and even then, I wouldn't like to try it! The expansion doesn't just occur around the edge - it occurs between the boards as well. Usually that's a tiny amount, and will sort itself out if the boards are left in the room to acclimatise, but if they're not, it's a surefire way to end up with either gaps or bulges.

You definitely need a damp-proof membrane, especially on a concrete floor. Are you actually buying the materials from them? If so, it sounds as if this is how they're getting the lower quote - by leaving out the underlay and not bothering with the extra trip.

Now, before you panic, it may be that the underlay does include the DPM - a lot of them do (they've got a metallic finish - see here: http://www.shopcreator.com/mall/departmentpage.cfm?store=floors2go&did=37692&productpage=1&sdpage=1
As it's a concrete floor, and therefore wouldn't need the sound insulation required on a floor being laid on floorboards, for instance, it might even be that they're planning to just use the one that comes packaged with the Uniclic - IIRC, it's a thin blue foam underlay that also acts as a vapour barrier. I do think you need to check this with them, and get them to explain properly what they're planning to use (and insist that at the very least, they use the Uniclic barrier and drop the materials off at least 48 hours beforehand). When the packs arrive, open them all, mix the boards from at least 3 packs at a time to get an even colour distribution, and leave them placed flat - don't stand them up, or they'll warp. You might want to just have someone around when they start laying too, just to make sure those boards aren't laid directly on that concrete.

Stabilo

tawnyowls wrote:

Sorry, afraid I agree with George. It's all very well saying 'we know how much it expands', but unless you know exactly what the moisture level is in a particular house, you can't possibly work that out, and even then, I wouldn't like to try it! The expansion doesn't just occur around the edge - it occurs between the boards as well. Usually that's a tiny amount, and will sort itself out if the boards are left in the room to acclimatise, but if they're not, it's a surefire way to end up with either gaps or bulges.

I really would insist on having an damp-proof membrane, especially on a concrete floor, and getting the stuff dropped off at least 48 hours beforehand (open all the packs and mix the boards from at least 3 packs at a time as well). Are you actually buying the materials from them? If so, it sounds as if this is how they're getting the lower quote - by leaving out the underlay and not bothering with the extra trip.That doesn't necessarily mean they'll do a bad job - the actual laying is pretty straightforward, so it doesn't mean choosing the cheapest is a bad idea (although TBH, you could probably do it yourself), but you do need to insist on getting the materials beforehand and having the quote include the underlay. It may be that the underlay does include the DPM - a lot of them do (they've got a metallic finish - see here: http://www.shopcreator.com/mall/departmentpage.cfm?store=floors2go&did=37692&productpage=1&sdpage=1
IIRC, Uniclic is packaged with a with a thin foam underlay/vapour barrier, so it might just be that this is what they were intending to use.

Yes they are contracted to supply & fit. I think I'll give them a ring & ask them to drop off the laminate a couple of days before they fit & insist on a membrane.

Ok. i'm ready to ask them to drop off the materials 48 hours beforehand but do tradesmen actually EVER do this?

woodbutcher_2

I would do it if asked but i think you are being overcatious.If it were real wood flooring,then fair enough but in reality,laminate isn't going to present you with any problems.Leaving a 10mm gap all round will take care of any expansion/subtraction in an average sized room.Wouldn't hurt to put a membrane down though.

Stabilo

woodbutcher wrote:

I would do it if asked but i think you are being overcatious.If it were real wood flooring,then fair enough but in reality,laminate isn't going to present you with any problems.Leaving a 10mm gap all round will take care of any expansion/subtraction in an average sized room.Wouldn't hurt to put a membrane down though.

Following advice from others I have insisted on the 48 hours stabilising time, the tradesman was not happy about it though. Like you he said it's just not necessary.

When he quoted he said it didn't need a membrane. Having taken up half of the carpet & underlay I tend to agree as the floor is bone dry (as I would expect in a four year old house). How would a membrane be fitted with exitsing skirting boards as we are planning to just fit quadrants to the existing boards?

George_Bray

Stabilo

My concern in a similar position to yours would be to minimise the risk for minimal extra cost. So I'd be prepared to spend a couple of quid on petrol going to collect the materials myself if the trader was unhappy. Further, this is why I never use traders for jobs I can tackle myself. Waterproof membrane can be bought from DIY stores so I might buy that myself, too. My house is about 25 years old and damp still appears on the concrete floor in one or two spots, although it's not widespread, so perhaps it's just a fault with my house. I think the present November contrast between cold/damp conditions in most unheated stores is in fairly sharp contrast to the conditions in a dry centrally-heated home, so leaving the timber to warm up and dry out must make sense, as it's such a a low cost step. I'd leave it for at least a week.

Regards
George

Stabilo

George_Bray wrote:

Stabilo

My concern in a similar position to yours would be to minimise the risk for minimal extra cost. So I'd be prepared to spend a couple of quid on petrol going to collect the materials myself if the trader was unhappy. Further, this is why I never use traders for jobs I can tackle myself. Waterproof membrane can be bought from DIY stores so I might buy that myself, too. My house is about 25 years old and damp still appears on the concrete floor in one or two spots, although it's not widespread, so perhaps it's just a fault with my house. I think the present November contrast between cold/damp conditions in most unheated stores is in fairly sharp contrast to the conditions in a dry centrally-heated home, so leaving the timber to warm up and dry out must make sense, as it's such a a low cost step. I'd leave it for at least a week.

Regards
George

We will stabilise for 48 hours, schedules don't allow for any longer. As it is our 15 month old baby will have to play around the laminate for 2 days.
We have a B&Q superstore within a few hundred yards so I think I will pick up some membrane. Can someone expalin how the membrane is fitted with existing skirting board in case the tradesmen don't know how to fit it? Do they just allow a small overhang, fit the quadrants and then trim? How is the membrane fitted to the concrete floor, glue, tape, just sits there?