Penalty points question

grogdog

hi folks,

a few sundays ago i was driving from the bottom of the glenshane pass in a ford transit van going towards belfast when we passed a speed cameravan at the side of the road, at the time i remember looking at my speed and it was mid 60's so wasnt concerned.

however the owner of the van got notice in and obviously passed this on to me,it said we were doing 66 in a 50mph. It was only when i checked this out i discovered that hgv's are only allowed to do 50 on an a road and 60 on motorways, so i filled in the form to say i was driving and am waiting on them now asking for the £60 and 3 points.

but last night i was told to appeal this as a transit van is not classified as a hgv and therefore this speed restriction does not apply, this came form someone who works in the fireservice and had a friend appeal on a similar basis and was adamant he was right.

does any one know the answer as i dont want to appeal and risk more points!!!

thanks in advance.

caz2703

Don't want to come across as nasty but to throw a spanner in the works, no matter what the limit was for your vehicle, you were still going above the limit for the road no matter what vehicle. I know technically you may say it's only 6mph but if you appeal you could end up with more points. If you were only doing 56mph in a 60 limit then I'd say appeal but if you haven't made a typo I'd say take it on the chin.

arkonite_babe

This might help from the Department of transport:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speedmanagement/vanspeedlimits

As a van driver myself, I have to say sorry and agree with Caz, you were over the limit and so best to take it on the chin rather than make it worse.

HTH

spike7451

You were caught doing 66 in a 50 zone,that's 16mph over the speed limit.Imagine the difference a that 16mph would make if you hit a child?
I believe you are allowed 10% over the speed limit,which is 5mph if my maths is right.

It was only when i checked this out i discovered that hgv's are only allowed to do 50 on an a road and 60 on motorways, so i filled in the form to say i was driving and am waiting on them now asking for the £60 and 3 points.

The 50mph ONLY applies to urban roads & dual carraigeways where the is no national speed limit,not all roads.

Man up & take the hit,for doing over the limit by that much,you deserve it.
(and yes,I have been done for speeding,47 in a 40 zone however that's the only time I have any fines or points since I passed my test in 1987)

cooki2222

grogdog wrote: »

hi folks,

a few sundays ago i was driving from the bottom of the glenshane pass in a ford transit van going towards belfast when we passed a speed cameravan at the side of the road, at the time i remember looking at my speed and it was mid 60's so wasnt concerned.

however the owner of the van got notice in and obviously passed this on to me,it said we were doing 66 in a 50mph. It was only when i checked this out i discovered that hgv's are only allowed to do 50 on an a road and 60 on motorways, so i filled in the form to say i was driving and am waiting on them now asking for the £60 and 3 points.

but last night i was told to appeal this as a transit van is not classified as a hgv and therefore this speed restriction does not apply, this came form someone who works in the fireservice and had a friend appeal on a similar basis and was adamant he was right.

does any one know the answer as i dont want to appeal and risk more points!!!

thanks in advance.

Firstly is the road speed limit 50 or 60?
Im assuming the glenshane pass is 60, if it said you were doing 66 then I would appeal as you are allowed 10% + 2mph before you can be fined so 66 would fall into that category.


But all depends on whether or not your van is classed as being allowed to do 50/60

arkonite_babe

Unless the chassis of the van is derived from a car then the OP was over the limit by 16mph. See my link posted above for clarification.

Quoted rom the above link.....

It is very important for drivers to bear in mind that vans (and all goods vehicles not exceeding 7.5 tonnes) are subject to lower national speed limits than cars on both single and dual carriageway roads.

Whilst a car may travel at up to 60 mph on single carriageways and 70 mph on dual carriageways vans are only allowed to travel up to 50 mph on single carriageway roads and 60 mph on dual carriageway roads.

caz2703

You say you are allowed 10% +2 but where do you get this information? As long as a camera or speedometer is calibrated correctly then if you are proven to be over the limit then you're over the limit. It may be at the discretion of an officer if they are using a handheld camera or driving alongside you if they pull you over as it would depend on road conditions, location of the speeding (major road, outside a school etc), what side of the bed the officer got out of that morning but if a camera clocks you doing over the limit I would doubt you could use the "but I'm allowed a bit of give and take" excuse.

At the end of the day, speed limits are not a guideline and just because it says you can drive at 60 doesn't mean you have to so. If you are over, you're over. Speedometers generally have a tolerence built in (somewhere around 10%) so you are actually going slower than the speedo shows (I've seen this myself with a GPS system) and factors such as tyre size or pressure can make all the difference. For example, if you put 14" wheels on a car designed to take 13" wheels it could make a difference of up to 5mph.

I'm not having a go at anyone but having spoken to someone in the know (albeit a few years ago now) there are guidelines for speed enforcement but they are just that - guidelines. You could do 67mph in a 60 one night and not get stopped by a traffic cop yet the next night you could. I regularly drive the A2 from Belfast to Bangor which has around 10 average speed cameras and I remember reading that in a 6 month period only one person had been fined for speeding even though I drive close to the limits and cars regularly drive past me.

grogdog

WHERE DID I SAY I WASNT GOING TO TAKE IT ON THE CHIN? I HAVE SENT THE FORM AWAY TO TELL THEM I WAS DRIVING.

thank you cooki2222 for your reasonable response.

spike check your facts.

i would imagine the vast majority of drivers are unaware of this rule that on A roads where the speed limit is 60 that transit vans can only travel at 50mph. There would be very few cars or vans on the road if everyone doing 60mph were done.

custardy

grogdog wrote: »

WHERE DID I SAY I WASNT GOING TO TAKE IT ON THE CHIN? I HAVE SENT THE FORM AWAY TO TELL THEM I WAS DRIVING.

thank you cooki2222 for your reasonable response.

spike check your facts.

i would imagine the vast majority of drivers are unaware of this rule that on A roads where the speed limit is 60 that transit vans can only travel at 50mph. There would be very few cars or vans on the road if everyone doing 60mph were done.

i saw a post on this regarding Fiat doblo vans,i will try and find it

edit:

One of our technicians has found out about the speed limit and how it applies toa Doblo, the hardway.

He has been done for doing 71mph on a dual carriageway.... in a Doblo Cargo 1.9 m-jet. He saw the camera van and sat at what he thought was bang on the speed limit, until the ticket came through to the office..

Here is why..

The speed limit for a car or car derived van up to 2000kg GVW* or Max Laden Weight is 70mph on a dual carraigeway
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm#103

The Doblo Cargo 1.9 m-jet sx GVW is 2010kg and therefore the limit is 60mph
http://www.fiat.co.uk/cgi-bin/pbrand.dll/FIAT_IRELAND/section/section.jsp?session=no&categoryOID=-1073787853

so 3 points and a £60 fine for being 10kg over the threshold - how harsh is that considering the guy was doing what he thought was bang on the speed limit! This also reduces the speed on single carraigeways too!

The Cargo 1.3 m-jet is bang on 2000kg

We are trying to find out if this affects the MPV version as the kerb weight of the 1.9SX is 1430kg, which only leaves 570kg, but I dont know how this is calculated, if at all in additional payload

Before anyone bangs on about that he should have known about the speed limit for a van - I am an advanced driver (IAM) and have to admit it never occured to me to check this!

*GVW is Kerb weight + Payload

this the same thing?

grogdog

thats it exactly.

caz2703

grogdog wrote: »

WHERE DID I SAY I WASNT GOING TO TAKE IT ON THE CHIN? I HAVE SENT THE FORM AWAY TO TELL THEM I WAS DRIVING.

Here is were you said you were thinking of appealing.

but last night i was told to appeal this as a transit van is not classified as a hgv and therefore this speed restriction does not apply, this came form someone who works in the fireservice and had a friend appeal on a similar basis and was adamant he was right.

does any one know the answer as i dont want to appeal and risk more points!!!

If you were going to take it on the chin then this post would have been more of an FYI for other vans drivers who may or may not be aware of speed restrictions. By mentioning that you may appeal and wanted some answers, others have replied with answers that maybe you didn't want to hear. My only thoughts were:

1. You could be fined more if you appeal as regardless you were above the speed limit
2. A lot of people are under the assumption that there is definite "give and take". Problem is that this isn't the case so for those who see a 70 sign and think they're fine driving at 79, think again.