Who do you hate...?

lostinrates

There are indeed a lot of very poor standards in farming in UK However, they are higher than in many other countries. That we are among the better welfare standards does not mean we shouldn't keep striving to raise standards higher still. That was one of my reasons for wanting to go into industry....as a model enterprise using uptodate research on husbandary relating to welfare standards and partly to run a research facility for furthering that. (along the lines of what I used to do) A lot of it IMO, i the numbers of animals to farmer ratio. However goes a large scale farmer you are, there is a limit to the number of animals you can know really intimately well....as opposed to just well. Of course...the answer to this comes back as....everything does..to politics and money. And change. People are very resistant to change/finding out that they could do things better. when I worked ''in the field'' going out to look at subjects for research people would ask and I would presetn them with some possible solutions. People rarely tried them in a meaningful way.

zygurat789

SingleSue wrote: »

I find Clarkson funny but don't always agree with what he says and I am ambivalent about foxes, understanding both sides of the arguement.

The argument isn't about foxes. If a fox is detrimental to human survival, shoot it fair enough. The argument is about getting pleasure from slaughtering wild animals for doing what they do naturally. That's inhuman.

ninky_2

lostinrates wrote: »

There are indeed a lot of very poor standards in farming in UK However, they are higher than in many other countries. That we are among the better welfare standards does not mean we shouldn't keep striving to raise standards higher still. That was one of my reasons for wanting to go into industry....as a model enterprise using uptodate research on husbandary relating to welfare standards and partly to run a research facility for furthering that. (along the lines of what I used to do) A lot of it IMO, i the numbers of animals to farmer ratio. However goes a large scale farmer you are, there is a limit to the number of animals you can know really intimately well....as opposed to just well. Of course...the answer to this comes back as....everything does..to politics and money. And change. People are very resistant to change/finding out that they could do things better. when I worked ''in the field'' going out to look at subjects for research people would ask and I would presetn them with some possible solutions. People rarely tried them in a meaningful way.

which countries have worse standards? maybe they don't have as much legislation (although isn't most of ours EU driven?) but that doesn't mean practices are worse. although i plead ignorance here and am just casting my mind to a visit to OH homeland of iran where much farming is small scale or organised collectively. they have different slaughter processes there too. no animal should see another animal be killed unlike the conveyor belt slaughters we do. i remember my OH being really shocked and upset when there was a documentary showing a horse being shot in a field whilst there were other horses in it able to see.

but i wasn't just thinking of livestock. i was also considering the mass deforestation and use of chemicals that has left much of the uk as pasture desert and severely effected bio diversity.

lostinrates

ninky wrote: »

which countries have worse standards? maybe they don't have as much legislation (although isn't most of ours EU driven?) but that doesn't mean practices are worse. although i plead ignorance here and am just casting my mind to a visit to OH homeland of iran where much farming is small scale or organised collectively. they have different slaughter processes there too. no animal should see another animal be killed unlike the conveyor belt slaughters we do. i remember my OH being really shocked and upset when there was a documentary showing a horse being shot in a field whilst there were other horses in it able to see.

but i wasn't just thinking of livestock. i was also considering the mass deforestation and use of chemicals that has left much of the uk as pasture desert and severely effected bio diversity.

did n't they teach you bits of this as part of rural studies?

I agree about small scale farming offering benefits, as I said. and it is some of the practises that are better elsewhere..like small scale free grazing, non- isoltionary practises.I was actually refering to take up of ''friendly'' farming in EU. EU basic welfare isn't, IMO, that great (including our own adherance to EU minimum standards). This relates back again to economy, profit and politics in part. Slaughter is a vtal, vital part of the process to get right, and something I worked as a voluntary researcher for, to gain more insight into. I always heartily recommend Temple Grandin's work to those who express interest as an excellent starting point to understanding very minor cost effective improvements that can (and often are ) being made. Some people become confused about ''ethics'' and ''slaughter'' being used in the same sentence, but it is terribly important we get it right there as during other stages of husbandary.


re shooting stock...I often let our animals see the others when put to sleep. I choose what seems the best method of PTS (or slaughter as relevant ) for the animal's welfare , and note animals ''seem to pine less'' (a very unscientific observation that I, as yet, make no claims for)when they have ''seen'' the dead one...not the death though....I have been where that happened, and whether or not it upset the animals it made me a less good handler to them..which could cause stress to them in its own right.

Meat should not be cheap: it costs to do things anything like ''right''.

And decisions are hard...e.g. one of our chicks broke its wing this morning. n a commercial scale you ar faced with a decision: does this effect meat/egg ability ...how much to treat...or destroy.

On my teeny scale level I am able to say...she's a girl and has egg value and I have time to fuss about with vet wrap and settings. I confirmed with my vet (my expertise is not chickens) that my action was ''humane'' (she's my pet!) and feel able to do, with this number of animals, which I might not in many commercial practices.

nickmason

Although I don't agree with much of Craig Murray's politics, his book "Murder in Samarkand" is a riveting read - and a pretty damning expose of our policies re Afghanistan.
Anybody who is called - by Jack Straw - a "deep embarassment to the entire Foreign Office" can't be all bad!

bioboybill

Thatcher- I hope she spends every day of the rest of her life in confusion and pain.

Jordan - !!!!!! is the point of the woman?

Really2

bioboybill wrote: »

Thatcher- I hope she spends every day of the rest of her life in confusion and pain.

What a lovely insight of your compassion towards dementia.

Print your post off so you can remind yourself if you end up suffering it.

tomterm8

lostinrates wrote: »

. I've not had the full time ownership responsibility of sheep, or had to make...say feed decisions. Or ever trimmed feet or anything. Perhaps they bring pleasure if you do that? I think I'd spend every day bash head aganst wall about there stupidity.

Hebridean sheep are not that stupid:D They are more like goats than commercial sheep really.

At the end of the day, they are a noncommercial flock. We can make a loss on it without affecting our livelyhood. Otherwise, it would have been hard justifying getting the vet out after the hard pregnancy... economically, the best thing to do might have been to kill the sheep. Given she is never going to be bred from again.

That's probably something commercially you would have to do.

It's easier for us, we don't need to make such decisions.

As for the general state of agriculture, I actually think it can be very poor. Our society doesn't make much sence. We throw away a lot of goodness in our sewage, eat far more meat than we can sustainably produce, and eat too few vegetables to be really healthy. That's my general opinion. I don't like the way many chickens are kept, and I don't really like the way commercial sheep are kept... although I eat both, I try to go for the more expensive options.

In general I think out society isn't very sustainable.

lostinrates

tomterm8 wrote: »

Hebridean sheep are not that stupid:D They are more like goats than commercial sheep really.

At the end of the day, they are a noncommercial flock. We can make a loss on it without affecting our livelyhood. Otherwise, it would have been hard justifying getting the vet out after the hard pregnancy... economically, the best thing to do might have been to kill the sheep. Given she is never going to be bred from again.

That's probably something commercially you would have to do.

It's easier for us, we don't need to make such decisions.

As for the general state of agriculture, I actually think it can be very poor. Our society doesn't make much sence. We throw away a lot of goodness in our sewage, eat far more meat than we can sustainably produce, and eat too few vegetables to be really healthy. That's my general opinion. I don't like the way many chickens are kept, and I don't really like the way commercial sheep are kept... although I eat both, I try to go for the more expensive options.

In general I think out society isn't very sustainable.

I agree....non comparitively agriculture is often poor. comparitively here we do ok.

I also agree about sustainability....their are lots of different possible solutions. we all think we hold the right one.

But for a few hundred thousand pounds I'd love to run a research facility for ethical practice.

As it is maybe the idea of a quiet life filled with consumerism does appeal more and more and more.

ninky_2

lostinrates wrote: »

did n't they teach you bits of this as part of rural studies?

.

no. it was mainly gestation times and whether to put hot or cold water in first to clean milk bottles (something to do with the fat congealing?). and a lot of boasting about how our school farm could rear a bullock fit for market from a calf in a year when the average was three year (hormones a go-go methinks). as with feminism my school had yet to discover organic or ethical farming.

one half term someone let all the hens out the battery hen farm (i'll never forget the smell or scenes inside that shed) and daubed ALF on the shed. the rural studies teacher went ape. he died a few years later from a mysterious nervous disorder brought on by exposure to sheep dip.

so i think many of my formative attitudes may have come from my school days. although many of the farming kids thought it was great and didn't see the point in any other subjects.