Technical definition of 'bulls' and 'bears'?

abaxas

Conrad wrote: »

+ Fixed unchanging view that economic woe is just around the corner - always.
+ That the UK's commercial heart is wanning - always
+ That things were better yesteryear - always
+ That people around them are 'on a knife edge' / not realistic

But these views are held by many a 'bull' too. It's more of an age thing.

Doctor_Gloom

abaxas wrote: »

In terms of housing

Bulls - selfish individuals who only think about themselves
Bears - group oriented people who beleive in community

It's hard to argue with that. Also bulls are remarkably short-sighted creatures, they almost revel in the idea of their offspring being unable to buy their own home. Or only being able to do so with a financial millstone around their necks.

Conrad

abaxas wrote: »

But these views are held by many a 'bull' too. It's more of an age thing.

The bulk of people just get on with life and buying property, they aren't all hung up on economics and politics. It's this general public will that drives the economy and prices in the round.

Those with a particular fixation on risk and the economic downside in my view allow thier outlook to wiegh too heavily on thier processing, whereas a more middling / ho hum . muddle on attitude seems to serve most of us ok - less that 1% get repossessed.

Conrad

Doctor_Gloom wrote: »

bulls are remarkably short-sighted creatures, they almost revel in the idea of their offspring being unable to buy their own home.

Not at all, we're just pragmatists - we know prices will keep on rising in general and therefore we do things like save now each month for our childrens future deposits.

We also know out primary asset can be down traded at retirement, something our children in turn can benefit from as they in turn build thier nest egg.

Let me ask you - should we be resentful that your pension pot might increase in value long term? That pushes up the cost of underlying assets such as shares making it more costly for your children to build a pension?

StevieJ

Conrad wrote: »

.

Let me ask you - should we be resentful that your pension pot might increase in value long term? That pushes up the cost of underlying assets such as shares making it more costly for your children to build a pension?

Bears invest their Childs Trust Fund in Savings accounts

Bulls in the stock market

Generali

Conrad wrote: »

The bulk of people just get on with life and buying property, they aren't all hung up on economics and politics. It's this general public will that drives the economy and prices in the round.

Those with a particular fixation on risk and the economic downside in my view allow thier outlook to wiegh too heavily on thier processing, whereas a more middling / ho hum . muddle on attitude seems to serve most of us ok - less that 1% get repossessed.

If you're not hung up on economics then a forum dedicated to economics and house prices seems to be a strange place to post and you are a reasonably prolific poster I think.

Of course your right to say that economics in the end is just the totalling of a lot of individual decisions. Thatcher was pilloried for pointing out that truism.

Cleaver

I started a thread on this before...

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=26753885&highlight=bullish#post26753885

Cleaver wrote: »

Stop me if I'm way off course here as I'm happy to be corrected.

Harry Powell posted very eloquently on this subject the other day but I note that there is another bull vs bear nonsense thread on here again today, so probably worth bringing back up.

Can we please cease with all the "I'm a bull", "The problem with bears...", "The bulls have..." rubbish. Surely these words are best used as an adjective, in that someone is bullish or bearish about a particular thing or, often, a market. As facts, circumstances and opinions change on situations it's surely not possible to be a bear or a bull. In the same way that it's possible to be happy or sad, but not really correct to describe yourself as a happy or a sad.

For example, if the government announced tomorrow that they were offering lifetime 0% mortgages and a nice £20,000 gift deposit to FTBers throughout the first 6 months of 2010 I would be pretty bullish about the housing market. Who wouldn't be? If the government then announced that they were raising stamp duty to 8% for the remainder of 2010, I would suddenly become quite bearish about the housing market.

When people use bull and bear on this website to describe themselves or someone else what they are actually using the term to mean is 'someone who cannot, or is unwilling, to change their ideology, opinions and view based on the changing world and facts around them'. Over the past 12 months a load of people who joined a 'team' of either bull and bear and then stuck to defending their positive or negative viewpoint no matter what. I'm not saying everyone is this way, but it's pretty much coming up in every thread so it's at a pretty annoying level. Is there any chance we can stop this?

And as for all this 'since the bears / bulls got banned...' rubbish. From what I can see people seem to get banned for people unpleasant to other people, posting stuff they shouldn't, insulting the website owner or creating multiple accounts. I sincerely doubt that someone who has a full time job and then volunteers to work as a mod on here in their spare time is sitting there thinking: "you know what, I'm quite bullish about the housing market. I think I'll slowly start picking off people who have a more negative view than mine, so I can make the forum seem slightly more positive overall." If you think along these lines you're a couple of cans short of a six-pack.

Rant over. For now.

ess0two

Doctor_Gloom wrote: »

It's hard to argue with that. Also bulls are remarkably short-sighted creatures, they almost revel in the idea of their offspring being unable to buy their own home. Or only being able to do so with a financial millstone around their necks.

The millstone around the neck has always been the case regardless of buying at any time.

It would be ideal to have a house and a pocket full of cash,but this has never been the case.

Like everything it gets easier over time,you just have to be prepared to make the commitment and cut your cloth to suit.

Cleaver

abaxas wrote: »

In terms of housing

Bulls - selfish individuals who only think about themselves
Bears - group oriented people who beleive in community

What?!

I would go with the following terms to sum up people on herewhen it comes to ideology on housing and economics relating to housing.

Fixed Idealists - those with a fixed view of the direction of travel of the housing market and an inability to change their opinion, idelogy or view based on facts in front of them. People who feel that house prices can only go one way (either up or down) and are predisposed to find articles, viewpoints and opinion that supports their idealogy. This may be to do with a direct vested interest - maybe wanting to buy a house, or already owning a house for investment purposes. They may have even forgot why they have a fixed idea on the situation, but have a personality type that now suits this way of behaving. They may then use this to 'define' themselves, i.e. by calling themselves a 'bear' or a 'bull', or even incorporating the definition in to their username (i.e. DaddyBear). Posting style tends to be very confident, almost like that of a religious person who cannot comprehend how they could ever be wrong. They don't tend to ask many questions, as they feel that they aready know the answers and know what's going to happen. And again, just a like a religious person someone who sees themself as a 'bear' would imagine a 'bull' to be completely opposite to them, whereas everyone else would see the personality types as very similar. This group will contain renters or owners.

Open Opinionists - Those with an interest in house prices and with an opinion on which way house prices will go. This viewpoint may change over time, based on the economic conditions around them and articles they read. Therefore their opinion may change from bearish to bullish dependant on a variety of factors. This person may ask more questions than a Fixed Idealist as they may have not made their mind up on a certain aspect, or lack the knowledge to make a clear decision or judgement one way or another. The Open Opinionist would probably like to be able to make a fixed judgement and stick to it, like a Fixed Idealist, but maybe feels that there are too many variables to make a firm decision over the long term. Posting style will obviously contain opinion, but with less certainty and probably more question. This group will obviously also contain renters and owners.

Avant-Gardists - the rather out-there, innovative, creative, wacky, non-conformist posters who, like the Fixed Idealists, have strong and fixed opinions, but it tends to be of the more 'way out' variety. 70% falls in the housing market, only buying one asset (such as a precious metal), the world being run by a global elite causing financial crisis, people who think that society may end and we will have to become survivalists, the Illuminati having a say in house prices, the opinion that the statistics discussed by the Open Opinionists and Fixed Idealists are fake anyway, so what's the point of discussing them? These posters tend to start threads, or bring existing threads, back around to a global elite, comparing the UK to places like Zimbabwe, Gold, immigration, how awful the BBC license fee is and genral conspiracies. You'll never know if this group includes renters or owners as they never give anything away about themselves, prefering to remain a bit mysterious.

Nomads - Those that have somehow fallen in to this forum and find themselves posting with the three people above. This could have been to ask an initial question, because they enjoy the banter, because they have a passing interest in economics or a bit of an addiction to the place. They may have some vague opinion in the direction and state of house prices, but this is secondary to just having a bit of banter, discussion and debate with a load of familiar people.

Cleaver

Just out of pure curiousity, is there any poster who would self-identify themselves as the type described as a Fixed Idealist? I reckon I could come up with about 15 or 20 people on here who would slot fairly nicely in to that catagory.