Budget 2010: Budget 2010: Child tax credits up for one and two-year-olds

Morporkian

I only wanted to point out that 2.5/3 hours is hardly "most of the day", as you claimed. It is only enough time to get things done that everyone has to do (at some point. Be it while kids are at school, in the evenings, or at weekends).

I did not say at all that people "need a free nursery place to do the above examples". This is where you have twisted it. I said that is what I usually do while daughter is away - simply because it is far easier without a 3 year old running around me! :P - not that a "free place" is needed to do it. Therefore I am not just sitting around not doing anything while she is away.

What you have implied, and that I quoted, is that people claim benefits to stay at home and look after the children, but then they suddenly have most of the day free when they could send their child to nursery for free, so really their choice to stay at home is invalid.

Yes, there are those that have many children (some by many partners!) who do so mainly to claim benefits, but that is not everyone. I choose to stay at home with my daughter until she is in full time education because it is easier for us than having to find expensive childcare (and so needing help from the government for it) if I want to do more than 2 hours (or less) a day. The rest of the day is spent doing things with her that do not cost either us or anyone else anything
My OH goes out to work full time and we get a bit back from WTC/CTC (honestly, his WTC is hardly worth it, but it's all done together isn't it, so cannot really say "just keep it, we don't need that bit", can we? *shrug*) which goes on food and everything for our daughter. Then everyone is entitled to free education for 12.5 (15 from Sep) hours a week for their 3 year old until they enter school. Why should a person not use this simply because they receive something other than Child Benefit? Because some high and mighty know-it-all implies/thinks it makes them lazy and scroungers?!

codwidow

Indeed, the free nursery places are to benefit the child and to introduce them to the Early Years Foundation Stage of learning which is continued into the reception year at infant/primary school, some people (like parents and pre school teachers) think that this is important as it helps prepare them for school and allow them to socialise with other similar age children and learn in a stimulating environment, this is why the pre school places are government funded because it is recognised that it helps with the transition into school life.

Everyone with a child of this age is entitled to the 15 hours whether they are working or not, it is not to benefit the parent it is to benefit the child regardless of whether their parents claim benefits or not.

liam8282

3 hours a day is about half a regular working day, for those that work, so yes it is most of the day.

Because some high and mighty know-it-all implies/thinks it makes them lazy and scroungers?!

So because my opinion differs to yours I am a high and mighty know it all? :T

codwidow

Originally Posted by liam8282
Another thing that irritates me that I mentioned before is, the people who don't work and get benefits, are also the ones that get free nursery places for their children. They say they stay at home to look after the kids etc, but as soon as they are nursery age, they have a free place and are in nursery most of the day.

People who work or dont work get the free nursery place its not dependent on income its for all children of a certain age.

How can you reckon it to be most of the day to take your child there at 9.00am then be back to collect them at 11.30am sorry that isnt "most of the day" as you put it. 2 hours really after getting home then going back to collect them. You would be hard pressed to find a job that has 2 hour shifts in weekday mornings oh and only in term time because pre schools are only open then

liam8282

I just don't think that somebody that is at home, doing whatever for 3 hours a day, should have the same entitlement to a free nursery place, as somebody who is actually out at work, putting something back into the system.

When you are in the situation, as I have been in, when you go to actually look for a nursery place and they are all full because of the people who don't work getting their kids in straight away, then you will understand where I am coming from.

You are just being pedantic over how long 3 hours a day actually is, if it is such a small amount of time why do you bother dragging yourself all the way to nursery and back, it seems such a burden on your busy day.

A working day is 7 hours, 3 hours nursery place is a big chunk of that.

Is the problem you really want free nursery places all day, everyday??

JimmyTheWig

liam8282 wrote: »

You are just being pedantic over how long 3 hours a day actually is, if it is such a small amount of time why do you bother dragging yourself all the way to nursery and back, it seems such a burden on your busy day.

Because most of the time, as parents, we do what is best for our children.

This isn't a childcare system, it is part of a child's education.

liam8282

:wall:IMO just another excuse.

There are plenty of other places that children can go for social interaction, or education, that is not a free nursery place.

You are not at work, take your kids to a museum FREE, take your kids to a park FREE, the list is endless.

Free nursery places should be for those who need it most, ie those that are at work. Even if they allocated places to workers first, that would be an improvement IMO. After all it is the workers who are actually paying for the nursery at the end of the day.

Why doesn't everyone just pack their jobs in and claim benefits, then what would happen?

JimmyTheWig

liam8282 wrote: »

After all it is the workers who are actually paying for the nursery at the end of the day.

Well in our case I go out to work and my wife stays at home with the kids. So our taxes are paying for the nursery places.

I'm slightly confused by your whole argument. If you've got small children and are working then I presume you have childcare arranged already. The free "nursery" places vouchers can be used for any registered childcare provider. It doesn't have to be a nursery. So if you can't find a nursery place (and if that is true it is truly disgraceful though the local authority is to blame rather than the parents who want the best for the kids) you can use the vouchers towards a day nursery, childminder, etc.
In fact, from my experience it is often working parents who choose this route as a 2.5 or 3 hour session is of little help to them.

Free nursery places should be for those who need it most, ie those that are at work.

This is where I disagree most. The best thing we can do for children born into families on benefits (this is who I think you are refering to) is to get them out of that environment as much as possible. Get them into an environment where they have a routine to their day, where they see grown ups (i.e. teachers, etc) as role models doing their job every day, mixing with other children who have parents who work - in other words highlight to them from an early age that going out to work is a perfectly normal thing to do.
I'd say the more we can do this the less likely these children are to follow the pattern of being another generation of benefit claimers.

Morporkian

liam8282 wrote: »

3 hours a day is about half a regular working day, for those that work, so yes it is most of the day.

Because some high and mighty know-it-all implies/thinks it makes them lazy and scroungers?!

So because my opinion differs to yours I am a high and mighty know it all? :T

No, the fact you are impling that and/or judging anyone who gets money from anywhere other than Child Benefit, which everyone is entitled to, no matter how much or little it is, is a lazy person who does not deserve for their children to go to school is what made me say you were a high and mighty know-it-all. o_O

And this, liam8282, is the point that you have managed to missed so many times:

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

Well in our case I go out to work and my wife stays at home with the kids. So our taxes are paying for the nursery places.

:T
My OH does work. Very hard in fact. He starts at 6:30am and finished at 4:30pm (or later if he chooses to stay later).

As someone else has pointed out, there are not very many jobs in the world that would allow you to work for 2 hours ish a day. It would hardly be worth it for the company if they are a larger one.
If it was a smaller company where a couple of hours in an office would impact them a lot, then yes it would be worth it because the amount of work done in an office in 2 hours really can be a lot for some people. I know this from having helped my Mum (who has to do it all as the server is not yet up, bless her). However, how many small companies do people know within walking/cycling/short driving distance of their child(ren)'s school that actually need help for just a couple of hours?

The nursery places, as you have been told, are for everyone. Couples that both work, singletons that work, couples where only one works, singletons that do not work or couples where neither one works. How does someone not working affect when their child gets in to a school?! I know couples who both work and as soon as their child was born put their name down for the school they wanted them to attend. Well, they did it at about 6 months. Therefore, you are using an excuse. You could have done it then too :eyeroll:
Personally, I think it should be fairer and that people should only be allowed to put their child(ren)'s name down in the term before they wish for them to attend. That way everyone has 3 months ish to get the names down and then it is up to the school who they take. They could do it by age order, address, whatever. It would be up to them.

codwidow

liam8282 wrote: »

I just don't think that somebody that is at home, doing whatever for 3 hours a day, should have the same entitlement to a free nursery place, as somebody who is actually out at work, putting something back into the system.

When you are in the situation, as I have been in, when you go to actually look for a nursery place and they are all full because of the people who don't work getting their kids in straight away, then you will understand where I am coming from.

You are just being pedantic over how long 3 hours a day actually is, if it is such a small amount of time why do you bother dragging yourself all the way to nursery and back, it seems such a burden on your busy day.

A working day is 7 hours, 3 hours nursery place is a big chunk of that.

Is the problem you really want free nursery places all day, everyday??

I think you will find that most people who stay at home to be with their kids, using their government funded hours send them to a local authority pre school unit attached or feeding into their potential chosen childs infant/primary school, not a private day nursery so they wont be "stealing your child care" as you like to make out.

A private day nursery charges what they like and is open year round to cater for working parents, usually until about 6pm from 7.30am. I have used a private nursery to send one of my children when I worked and claimed the hours from the government, which was useful. Of course day nurseries are happy to accept the government funding for 15hrs a week term time from a working parent who already has a child at their setting because they can charge their going rate.

A local authority pre school unit is generally only open less then half days from 9am or until the school day (approx 3pm) is over and wont be open during the school half terms or summer holiday, this is because it is education, not freebie childcare. Sessions are usually 2.5 or 3 hours. Less then a normal working shift, I used to work 4 hours each morning to enable me to do the school run so I would have been able to use a pre school for my childs care as I worked longer shifts than they were open, not to mention the school holidays as they would not be open.

It would be fairly difficult to use a local authority pre school (see above) as your main childcare provider when you are working even part time as it is only open a few hours a day, it is not childcare, it is early years foundation education, plus it is not open in school holidays.

I dont think anyone wants free nursery places all day every day or what would be the point in staying home with your child as you would never see them