disciplinary help please - SUSPENDED!!!

mum2one

britishboy wrote: »

See my previous post mum2one, they've made a few mistakes already, not sure if/when to raise a grievance if we do?

If she does get sacked then if the company hasn't followed correct procedure, I would personally keep that for now under wraps, the more mistakes they make, the bigger the egg on their face if they did sack gf and u went to tribunal.

Uncertain

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

2 The letter requiring her attendance at the disciplinary hearing should have informed her of the conduct that the company wishes to discuss with her, advised her that this is a potential GM situation and therefore her job is at risk, and also advised her of her right to be accompanied by a colleague or TU rep.

3 If the letter or procedure is flawed, it is probably in GF's interests to keep quiet about that because procedural flaws are the main reason that companies lose tribunal cases. They have their own legal advisers and she is not even expected to know that stuff. If she does point out their mistakes, they will simply have another hearing to review her concerns and do it right this time, thus correcting the errors so she can't later rely on them.

4 It is unlikely that they will press her to attend while on sick due to stress/depression because then she could later argue that she did not have a fair hearing because she was not well enough to present her case. If her doctor supported this at tribunal, again they would run a serious risk of losing the case, so normally a company will tread softly on this

2 & 3

This is excellent advice. It seems the company have little regard for following correct procedure. With care you may be able to give them enough rope to hang themselves.

4

It may actually help her case if they did insist on holding the meeting whilst she is signed off sick! It is fairly obvious that they have an agenda and that the outcome has been pre-decided.

It is worth asking her doctor if he considers the additional pressure the firm is applying is making your gf's condition worse. If he does then get this documented.

Does your gf see any realistic prospect of this situation being resolved in a way that she would feel able to return to work? Even if the firm were to realise that they have messed up their procedures and drop the matter (or issue a warning) would she want to go back now?

If, as I suspect, the answer is no then she needs to decide if she feels it is worth fighting them possibly all the way to an ET? This is not an easy decision and the legal position is only one factor that must be considered. Even if you are advised she has a good case it may or may not be the best thing for her to do.

A final option is to suggest to the firm that she will go quietly for a modest settlement (compromise agreement). This would bring the matter to a fairly swift conclusion and avoid the feeling that she has walked away with nothing. If her doctor feels the firm are making her ill this may concentrate their minds.

longwalks1

Chrisblue1962 wrote: »

Hi, have read what seems to be a very complicated matter.
If possible, could the OP clarify the following:

OP's g/f was allegedly slandered by a work colleague to a group of her (g/f's) friends out of the workplace outside working hours.
Correct, my gf was slandered to HER own group of friends, out of work, but during work time (at the local coffee shop during lunchtime)

G/f sent text message which colleague found offensive and cites bullying.
Gf tet saying to not slag her off, it had p***ed her off and to not do it again

• What exactly did the work colleague say to OP's g/f?

Notihng to gf face, talked about her behind her back, about gf previous relationship and why it ended

How did OP g/f find out and from whom?
Her closest friend told her as soon as the other girl left the coffe shop, gf friend was shocked and thought the employee had no reason to bring it up

• Have any of g/fs friends confirmed that the colleague did actually say something offensive about g/f?

Yes, closest friend told employee to stop talking about gf at the time

• Has work colleague admitted to slandering g/f?

No one knows, manager aid she hadnt spoke to other girl at time of suspending gf, was done indirectly through company, she wouldnt admit to it anyway

• If yes, has this been brought to attention to management?

management have been TOTALLY one sided,against gf, even tho they should be trying to resolve this taking both sides of story, gf recieved notes through today of initial investigation, and several KEY comments gf made have been omitted
Call me pedantic but difficult to pass informed opinion if not in possession of all the facts. I was an ex PCS Union Rep so have had some training on such matters.

Thanks again everyone for tuning in and bereing with me on this:

ChrisBlue
Have answered your questions above (hope they come out right)

Thanks again

longwalks1

dpassmore wrote: »

Based on the information provided, it would seem that the company are making a complete hash of the situation.
correct, its actually embaressing that a multi-national company can make such a mess and drama about a single text sent at 9pm one evening
For all of the company's apparent shortcomings however, it does provide them with an 'exit strategy' that could work in the OP's GF's favour.
Gf is getting fed up with it all, as am i to be honest, but you lot are really helping and we're kind of looking forward to pulling their process to pieces, if we get the chance

It would allow them to suggest that they were correct in using the disciplinary procedure to address the alleged bullying, however, it also allows the company to save face to some degree by not progressing the disciplinary action due to procedural 'technicalities'.

That would be the ideal situation, however, judging by the seemingly incompetence of the company involved, I would not hold my breath on that one!
The other employee works for different counter company, but both based in the same dept store, funny tihng is gf is being disciplined by her own manager ,who hasnt even spoke to the other girl, she's going on what was reported by other girl to her own manager, from a different company.... I'm starting to get a bit embarressed by it all, didnt realsie how poorly run some companies can be

Thanks again dpassmore

longwalks1

mum2one wrote: »

If she does get sacked then if the company hasn't followed correct procedure, I would personally keep that for now under wraps, the more mistakes they make, the bigger the egg on their face if they did sack gf and u went to tribunal.

Thanks mum2one, so you're thinking maybe hold off raising a grievance/tribunual til AFTER she is sacked (if indeed she is-we're kinda hoping she will be now, after all the !!!! ups the company have made)

how would we raise a tribunial? Havent a clue where to start if we needed to? If she isnt sacked, she plans to raise a grievance against her manager for all the mistakes shes already made

longwalks1

Uncertain wrote: »

2 & 3

This is excellent advice. It seems the company have little regard for following correct procedure. With care you may be able to give them enough rope to hang themselves.
Its what we're hoping too, in fact I wouldnt mind hanging her manager myself at the moment, amount of stress she's causing my gf.
4

It may actually help her case if they did insist on holding the meeting whilst she is signed off sick! It is fairly obvious that they have an agenda and that the outcome has been pre-decided.
Again, kinda hoping now, after all this [EMAIL="!!!!"]!!!![/EMAIL], they do want to sack her, as it looks like we'll have a great case against them, every day we're finding more corners they've cut, more mistakes made

It is worth asking her doctor if he considers the additional pressure the firm is applying is making your gf's condition worse. If he does then get this documented.
Her initial docs appt was through stress from work, along with a family issue, and the issue of the other girl my gf text, who was sending away my gf customers to another store while gf was on breaks, gf raised this several times with her manager last year, nothing was done

Does your gf see any realistic prospect of this situation being resolved in a way that she would feel able to return to work? Even if the firm were to realise that they have messed up their procedures and drop the matter (or issue a warning) would she want to go back now?
I have to be honest, my gf is very proud and will not apologise for sending the text, as it was sent out of work time and isnt a work issue in her eyes, and the fact such a fuss has been made of this, combined with her recieving NO support from her own manager or company, she doesnt want to work for them anymore. She feels very let down over the whole thing (some may shoot us for this but its true, she isnt prepared to grovel for a job where she isnt looked after)

If, as I suspect, the answer is no then she needs to decide if she feels it is worth fighting them possibly all the way to an ET? This is not an easy decision and the legal position is only one factor that must be considered. Even if you are advised she has a good case it may or may not be the best thing for her to do.
She (and I) dont feel we should walk away now, with nothing, or get sacked and admit she done wrong, she wants to highlight the number of mistakes her manager and company have made and show them up for it a little

A final option is to suggest to the firm that she will go quietly for a modest settlement (compromise agreement). This would bring the matter to a fairly swift conclusion and avoid the feeling that she has walked away with nothing. If her doctor feels the firm are making her ill this may concentrate their minds.
This would be a good idea yes, its been done several times at my company, althoguh her manager seems so useless at pretty much everything, she probably would have a clue what we was on about (I'm assuming we put the offer to them?)

Thanks again for your help Uncertain

emmell

how would we raise a tribunial? Havent a clue where to start if we needed to? If she isnt sacked, she plans to raise a grievance against her manager for all the mistakes shes already made[/QUOTE]

Take advise from the Citizens Advice Bureau.
ML.

longwalks1

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

1 She has been suspended and escorted off the premises. This will only be appropriate in cases of suspected gross misconduct. Therefore the company are considering dismissing her. A suspension in law is not part of the disciplinary process but is a neutral action to enable an investigation to take place, so she is not entitled to be accompanied or to be given notice of a meeting to suspend her. However, removing her discount card *may* be viewed as evidence that the decision to dismiss has already been made, in which case any subsequent investigation or meetings may be viewed as a sham procedure.
I thought the same about taking back her discount card, and emptying her locker and taking the key back, and escorting her oof the premisises and telling her she's not allowed back until its all resolved. From what i've seen the whole company and way its run is a sham, they seem to be making silly mistakes almost daily at the moment

2 The letter requiring her attendance at the disciplinary hearing should have informed her of the conduct that the company wishes to discuss with her, advised her that this is a potential GM situation and therefore her job is at risk, and also advised her of her right to be accompanied by a colleague or TU rep.
She got a letter through, dates 16th March, stating her disciplinary was to be 25th March, we recieved it on 31st March and t was postmarked 29th March, so theres a 2 week delay in being informed. She was offered to take a colleague or TU rep, albiet 2 weeks late

3 If the letter or procedure is flawed, it is probably in GF's interests to keep quiet about that because procedural flaws are the main reason that companies lose tribunal cases. They have their own legal advisers and she is not even expected to know that stuff. If she does point out their mistakes, they will simply have another hearing to review her concerns and do it right this time, thus correcting the errors so she can't later rely on them.
We're currently compiling a list of things they've done wrong, missed out or changed, such as the typed up copy of her initial meetings notes, they'd emitted several replies and comments my gf had made, we've listed these down too, and waiting to see when is best to 'make our move' so to speak. So far, its looking like after she is dismissed (if she is)

4 It is unlikely that they will press her to attend while on sick due to stress/depression because then she could later argue that she did not have a fair hearing because she was not well enough to present her case. If her doctor supported this at tribunal, again they would run a serious risk of losing the case, so normally a company will tread softly on this
2 main reasons causing her depression and stress is a family breakdown and problems at work, she raised 2 issues last year and nothing was done, one of her being bullied by a new manager out to make a name for himself, and 2, the said girl in quetion who was text, sending my gf customers away to a rival store, while supposed to be covering my gf counter during lunch break

5 This won't help her forever - eventually they will start capability proceedings anyway on the grounds that she is not fit to do her job. They may refer the case to the OHA, but ultimately, even if she is covered by a sick note, she can still be dismissed on capability grounds provided they go through proper procedures.
Lets hope they know the procedures, they dont seem to so far

6 Taking lots of time off sick is not, on its own, grounds for a gross misconduct dismissal (unless the employee is refusing to provide sick notes, or forging sick notes or something like that)
Provided sick notes every time, on time (i have another post running about her manager not passing her sicknote to payroll, and her being overpaid first month, now getting nothing the 2nd month because they're 'claiming back' what they are owed, this means not a single penny for my gf this month, not even a wage slip)

6 It seems incredible to me that one text is viewed as grounds for a gross misconduct dismissal, unless it was extremely offensive. I do wonder if there are other allegations that your GF hasn't told you about (sorry) but as I said above - whatever the allegations are, they should be set out clearly in the letter so that she has a fair opportunity to defend herself.
I get what your saying and are obviously hearing only our side of the story, but ive listed everything, i know my gf very well, and her company, and the other girl in fact. I would only give you all the truth so you could in turn gie me positive help and comments, which everyone is, than kyou all by the way

This may, or may not, help, but keep posting as things come to light.

Good Luck

Daisy

Hi Daisy

Thanks for your help and comments, have replied to them above

Thanks again

bboy

mum2one

Re - Employment tribunal.
Can be brought by an indiidual, or a solicitor can draft the initial application, if you gf is sacked then u have 3 months from the offence (would be the sacking), to bring a case, but there are ways around getting assistance.

The way she has been treated is appaeling, you had really good advice from the poster, (apologies useless with names) who was ex solicitor, she was spot on.

What u need to do now, don't worry about the tribunal thats a possibility down the line, for now ur gf needs to be seen by gp if the aggrivated stress from the employer is making her condition worse.

Also be careful what ur gf says to anyone else involved in the case, as she could be accused of plotting a story, or pushing a witness, the other side would use any thing they could.
Sent pm

greendollar

Don't be quick to rush to the Tribunal Service .... if your girlfriend is sacked then she has the right to appeal the decision , which she must do .
Its up to you but the appeal would be the place to bring up your points about the company not following proper disciplinary procedures and any other complaints you have about her treatment .
This will most probably be enough to overturn any dismissal and she keeps her job , if not you can demonstrate to the tribunal that they were made aware of their "mistakes" but still dismissed your girlfriend anyway .
Making a claim to the Employment Tribunal Service is easy and free , just go to their website and download a claims form .... but be warned , it may take months (i've been waiting 21 months) to have your claim heard but the advice given to me was to wait until the end of the 3 month time limit before putting your claim and show the Tribunal that you have only put the claim in because you exhausted all other avenues in trying to resolve your problem with the company amicably .

good luck