disciplinary help please - SUSPENDED!!!

dickydonkin

Uncertain wrote: »

Well I agree some employers may be insured against this or have some HR "package" that deals with such claims. However, even then it will probably push the cost up in the future.

The cheque my wife received from her former employer which was in relation to a settlement prior to a tribunal hearing, was indeed from an insurance company.

Having researched the insurer and checking their products and services, it seemed that her employer was able to insure themselves for unfair dismissal and similar claims, however, as I understood the terms, the insurance only 'kicked in' after the case had been referred to tribunal.

It was likely that any costs incurred prior to a confirmed tribunal would have to be paid out of the employers own pocket, however, I suspect that there will likely be some insurance policy to cover this as well.

I was not aware that such a policy was available although I would imagine that many employers will have such cover and I suspect you are correct in suggesting such premiums will be increased following a claim just like any insurance cover.

benoit

So what was the outcome on this one? Anyone?

galaxy09

Hi everyone,

I am the OP G/F and just wanted to give an update as to what is happening with my situation and ask a couple of questions. Also really wanted to say thanks for all the help and support from all of you and appreciate all the positive comments (not all been positive but that is to be expected!!)

I am still off work for the reasons you all know about. In this time of trying to get better I have rasied a grievance concerning my Area Manager for the way this whole thing has been so poorly treated and now have a formal grievenance meeting this wed (23rd) June at head office with my Regional Manager.

I phoned her today (21 June 2010) just to confirm I would attend but also to ask if she could arrange an alternative venue as I am not up to travelling to London. She told me that due to the fact she had meetings all day in head office this was not a possible option. Am I entitled to ask for somewhere more local to me and also while still signed off by my doctor should i be attending anyway?

I will be going into the meeting on my own but my B/F will be coming with me for support and as you know he has been fantastic throughout all of this and I couldn't of got through it without him. I'm very very lucky!!

I'm not quite sure what to expect from this hearing and I'm sure I will be asked what I want to see happen (in terms of area manager possibly?) indeed a loaded question but not sure of the procedure.

Sorry to ask what may seem to be such silly questions but just wanted to clarify my options and rights.

Thanks again for all the support and help you have provided in this complicated and drawn out issue!

SarEl

galaxy09 wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I am the OP G/F and just wanted to give an update as to what is happening with my situation and ask a couple of questions. Also really wanted to say thanks for all the help and support from all of you and appreciate all the positive comments (not all been positive but that is to be expected!!)

I am still off work for the reasons you all know about. In this time of trying to get better I have rasied a grievance concerning my Area Manager for the way this whole thing has been so poorly treated and now have a formal grievenance meeting this wed (23rd) June at head office with my Regional Manager.

I phoned her today (21 June 2010) just to confirm I would attend but also to ask if she could arrange an alternative venue as I am not up to travelling to London. She told me that due to the fact she had meetings all day in head office this was not a possible option. Am I entitled to ask for somewhere more local to me and also while still signed off by my doctor should i be attending anyway?

I will be going into the meeting on my own but my B/F will be coming with me for support and as you know he has been fantastic throughout all of this and I couldn't of got through it without him. I'm very very lucky!!

I'm not quite sure what to expect from this hearing and I'm sure I will be asked what I want to see happen (in terms of area manager possibly?) indeed a loaded question but not sure of the procedure.

Sorry to ask what may seem to be such silly questions but just wanted to clarify my options and rights.

Thanks again for all the support and help you have provided in this complicated and drawn out issue!

Being signed off sick from your normal work is not the same thing as not being able to attend disciplinary or grievance meetings. If you cannot attend the latter then your doctor should specifically state this on the fitness note. Otherwise the employer is entitled to expect you to attend.

If you cannot travel to London specifically because of your illness - ie, the medical condition prevents you from travelling - then you need to say so and ask for a postponment and a reasonable adjustment to enable you to attend, such as another location. But they are equally entitled to refuse this request unless there are good reasons (and preferably, from your point of view, evidenced reasons) for this.

In terms of what to ask in relation to outcomes, this depends entirely on you. Not all employers ask anyway, as it isn't always about "what you want" but resolving the matter (not always the same thing) if they uphold the grievance. But it is generally not a good idea to ask for something you know isn't going to happen. So, for example, you might want the manager sacked, but if that isn't likely to happen, you need to consider what would be the point of asking for it. Go for something that resolves the situation for you and which is deliverable by the employer.

Uncertain

SarEl wrote: »

Being signed off sick from your normal work is not the same thing as not being able to attend disciplinary or grievance meetings. If you cannot attend the latter then your doctor should specifically state this on the fitness note. Otherwise the employer is entitled to expect you to attend.

If you cannot travel to London specifically because of your illness - ie, the medical condition prevents you from travelling - then you need to say so and ask for a postponment and a reasonable adjustment to enable you to attend, such as another location. But they are equally entitled to refuse this request unless there are good reasons (and preferably, from your point of view, evidenced reasons) for this.

In terms of what to ask in relation to outcomes, this depends entirely on you. Not all employers ask anyway, as it isn't always about "what you want" but resolving the matter (not always the same thing) if they uphold the grievance. But it is generally not a good idea to ask for something you know isn't going to happen. So, for example, you might want the manager sacked, but if that isn't likely to happen, you need to consider what would be the point of asking for it. Go for something that resolves the situation for you and which is deliverable by the employer.

This is, as usual, excellent advice from a technical point of view.

I think you need to ask yourself a few questions....

Is there any realistic likelihood of the grievance leading to a situation where you would feel able to return to work?

If not, what is your objective? Are you just "ticking a box" to keep as many doors open as possible in case you make a claim? (nothing wrong with this if you feel you have been badly treated).

Would you prefer to come to some kind of compromise settlement and move on? It is unlikely the firm will suggest this (as it could be construed as constructive dismissal) but they may well consider it if you raise the subject.

Only you know what is likely to give you "peace". It is very easy for outsiders to say walk away. This maybe good advice but doesn't work for everybody.

If your doctor is willing to say you are not well enough to attend the meeting this buys some more time and puts the firm in a difficult position. If so, you / he need to be clear if he is saying you are not well enough to attend a meeting at all or just not well enough to travel.

If it is the second then they will probably offer to arrange to visit you. How do you feel about this? One advantage is that it may be easier to force a situation where you have somebody present. Although no legal right (the firm could refuse to hold the meeting) it is much, much harder for them to dictate terms in your home. Their only option is to walk out and have a wasted trip!

The final option is just to bat this round as s-l-o-w as possible. You are at least accruing holiday pay. Ultimately the firm may look to dismiss you on capability grounds (but they need to be careful) or may offer a compromise agreement.

Not easy I'm afraid

T800

I think it is reasonable that someone who is already certified by a GP as suffering from stress, should not have extra stress of having to attend disciplinary meetings, which I think is fair to assume that any reasonable minded person would consider a disciplinary meeting "stressful".

I would phone the employer, make them aware you are too unwell to attend the hearing.

SarEl

T800 wrote: »

I think it is reasonable that someone who is already certified by a GP as suffering from stress, should not have extra stress of having to attend disciplinary meetings, which I think is fair to assume that any reasonable minded person would consider a disciplinary meeting "stressful".

I would phone the employer, make them aware you are too unwell to attend the hearing.

I just so much know that I am going to regret saying this. The law is not "any reasonable minded person" and it never has been!

Being signed off sick, or as it now is "unfit", for normal work is not the same thing as being unfit to attend a disciplinary or grievance - if it were, then nobody would ever attend one because they would all be too busy pulling sickies to attend (not that I am even suggesting that the OP's gf is pulling a sickie - just talking about the general situation). Being off sick does not protect you from attending such a meeting and the only safe (in law) way of obtaining either a postponement or a "reasonable adjustment" is to have medical opinion to this effect. Even this won't work for long - in the end if a "compromise" cannot be made which allows the meeting to go ahead, with, where possible reasonable adjustments, then the employer can proceed without you at all.

T800

SarEl wrote: »

I just so much know that I am going to regret saying this. The law is not "any reasonable minded person" and it never has been!

Being signed off sick, or as it now is "unfit", for normal work is not the same thing as being unfit to attend a disciplinary or grievance - if it were, then nobody would ever attend one because they would all be too busy pulling sickies to attend (not that I am even suggesting that the OP's gf is pulling a sickie - just talking about the general situation). Being off sick does not protect you from attending such a meeting and the only safe (in law) way of obtaining either a postponement or a "reasonable adjustment" is to have medical opinion to this effect. Even this won't work for long - in the end if a "compromise" cannot be made which allows the meeting to go ahead, with, where possible reasonable adjustments, then the employer can proceed without you at all.

But I was in the same situation - and I phoned up on the morning saying I was too unwell to attend and not to bother me until my Doctor says I am better. I told them that I have been signed off unfit to work - and attending a disciplinary meeting is work. It requires cognitive ability. which someone who is work related stressed and depressed surely, by that definition would not be able to accomplish.

And "reasonable minded person" is a test that is used frequently in law.

my lawyer at the time did make it clear to me NOT to arrange appointments in future (as I previously did) and then risk having to cancel them. Which is why I told them I wont be doing anything until im better, and not to even contact me, because speaking to them is also work.

Uncertain

SarEl wrote: »

I just so much know that I am going to regret saying this. The law is not "any reasonable minded person" and it never has been!

Being signed off sick, or as it now is "unfit", for normal work is not the same thing as being unfit to attend a disciplinary or grievance - if it were, then nobody would ever attend one because they would all be too busy pulling sickies to attend (not that I am even suggesting that the OP's gf is pulling a sickie - just talking about the general situation). Being off sick does not protect you from attending such a meeting and the only safe (in law) way of obtaining either a postponement or a "reasonable adjustment" is to have medical opinion to this effect. Even this won't work for long - in the end if a "compromise" cannot be made which allows the meeting to go ahead, with, where possible reasonable adjustments, then the employer can proceed without you at all.

Sadly this is correct.

From galaxy09's point of view in many ways the worst thing would be if the employer deals with this by doing noting at all.

Before the recent judgement regarding holiday pay this was even more tempting. If you are a large organisation with a junior member of staff off sick long term you could just say "Get well soon, let us know when you are better". Statistically the chances of somebody returning after 6 months off are very low. It wasn't costing anything and you could deal with the matter in the unlikely event they did return. Even now it only costs 28 days pay so this may be the path of least resistance.

It gets galaxy09 nowhere as she is left with the choice of managing on SSP / ESA long term or resigning and finding another job. OK, she could bring a constructive dismissal claim (very hard to win) and even if she did the payout would be unlikely to be huge. The only other option is a personal injury claim. If a PI lawyer feels there is a worthwhile case then she may as well give this a go.

Raksha

I was in a similar position recently. My meeting was arranged for the first day I was signed as 'fit'. I went in late, with my OH as support (he knows my employer well, I am not a member of a Union and the only other employee was part of the problem) all this was with my employers agreement.

I could hardly bring myself to say anything during the meeting, mostly relying on the notes I had written before being signed off.

The meeting went well and had the effect of clearing the air.