PLEASE HELP... with my aggressive puppy!

Silveralice

Lemony wrote: »

qualifications don't in themselves mean that a person knows everything on the subject. We mustn't forget that a lot of animal behaviour articles are theories and are not necessarily fact.
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I don't know why this thread has turned into a debate about which behaviour theory and which behaviourist/trainer is best when all I wanted was advice on whether my puppys behaviour was normal?
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Please could people post about their own puppy biting experiences and give me some advice as to how to discourage it. Does his biting/nipping sound normal or is it a bit excessive? Thank you.

Nobody ever knows everything on any subject, and I reckon that after 20 years working with dogs I am only more aware of how much I don't know than I was at the outset, although I've learnt plenty during that time!

Surely the reason this thread has turned into a debate is that some people think your puppy's behaviour is normal, and have said so, while other people think it indicates a problem of some sort, and therefore a sub-thread of argument has grown up, much of it not directly related to your puppy, as will always happen when people are passionately interested in something. Of course this is frustrating for you when it wasn't what you wanted! I think your puppy's biting sounds normal for a high energy working breed, as many people have said. My current puppy is a poodle, having had lots of herding breed puppies in the past, as I said, and I am really enjoying how much easier it is to have a puppy and NOT be covered with minor wounds on my hands and arms as if I was self-harming. I really sympathise with your problems, because I never found a sure way of stopping my herding puppies from biting, other than waiting for their horrid sharp baby teeth to fall out. None of us can see the puppy, so if none of the suggestions work, then finding a local trainer used to high energy dogs would be your best bet. But I am sure you knew that ; ) Good luck.

keys_2

Having briefly read through the posts I think your puppy sounds normal also . I also hope you had good advice at the training session you went to .

He has a habit of stealing my slippers, tissues or other items (which again I think is normal) but when I try to take the items back

I put toys in his mouth and shake them about to make them look interesting but he just grabs hold of my skin and pulls!

I have found with rescue dogs I have previously owned after some good advice when I was learning and working with dogs myself that you must try your best to remove anything your dog may chew in the early days . The reason being for this is if they have access / you let them chew slippers / other objects other than dog toys . They then do not understand the difference between toys and other household items , which then will cause destruction in your beloved items in later life .
For example if you let your puppy chew a toweling slipper then they will not understand why it is wrong for them to chew a luxury towel you have on your radiator in the bathrrom .
Also what ive always found very good pratice to go with this is that I was taught , is to only let them play with their toys at certain times when they have your full attention to play with them { preferably before meal times when you have the most attention from them }
This shows your dog that you are in charge and that you have their full attention at that time . I used to have a bowl in the cupboard which I would get the tug toys / squeeky toy out at for 1/2 hr intervals throughout the day - Then place them back in the cupboard after the period . You can play for 1 hr or more if you like or more frequent times in the day { but with your dog being a puppy this time would be good to create set times of day to do this to help your dog with routine and meal and toilet times }Also you could use this time for introducing basic commands like sit / lye down etc.

I really think this method would work best for you as then your puppy will have more intrest in the tag toy if he /she knows the toy will not be available to play with all the time . So he / she will not get bored of it when you decided to play with the toy., and soon the nipping should stop .

You sound like a very good pet owner and your puppy sounds very normal and I wish you both all the best for your new companionship .

Lemony

Zooxanthelle wrote: »

I would be inclined to think that cheese isn't the best thing to give as a regular treat for your puppy. Think more natural things like a little bit of tasty chicken. Too many additives in cheese.

I keep grated cheese in my pocket and break each piece into about 3 more tiny pieces so he is really getting the tiniest pieces of cheese imaginable! When I spoke to the vet about what I should be feeding my dog he told me not to give him any meat because the protein would interfere with the Science Plan puppy food he is on. He said cheese was ok as long as it wasn't very much (which it isn't).

supermezzo wrote: »

I'm a bit confused by this. Why are you using a halter collar if he hasn't been out for a walk yet, how do you know he needs one? Maybe I'm reading it incorrectly...?

Sorry for the confusion. I think I described his collar incorrectly. When I said halter collar I meant one of those harnesses that they wear under their legs and around their chest so the lead doesn't pull on their necks. I didn't mean one of the collars that goes around their nose. The reason I have been trying to put the harness on him is to get him used to it before he can go out on walks. He doesn't have a problem with me putting it on him, but the smallest harness is too big for him and the loose bit that hangs down just makes him want to chew frantically (like he would chew anything else in front of him)! At the puppy party last night someone suggested that I could use a cat harness which is a good idea and I will see if I can get one that is smaller than the harness I already have for him.

tandraig wrote: »

I apologise for the stroll down memory lane.

No need to apologise. I'm a dog lover and I love all doggy tales.

tandraig wrote: »

i didnt attemp to teach her if she was hyper. games were played after we went through the lessons and only if she remained calm. I couldnt use the high pitched encouraging tone with her either. I had to learn a different technique with her - as i found she responded better to my OHs deeper manly voice i tried using a deeper voice and found it worked with her.

This is really good advice. I have already realised that nothing I say or do gets through to my dog when he is hyper. I want my dog to succeed and there is no point in me setting him up for failure. When I introduced him to the hoover I waited until he was calm and a bit tired and I distracted him with a game and treats so that I could reward him for his good reaction. If I had just switched the hoover on when he was hyper he would have barked and attacked it and I would have been unable to reward him. He did bark and try to kill the hoover nozzle but I distracted him and tried switching it on and off for about 10 seconds at a time, rewarding him for sitting quietly as I did so. He soon realised that sitting nicely while I used the nozzle was a much better game as it meant he got some cheese! I don't even attempt to hoover when he is hyper, I do it when he is tired as he won't be so inclined to want to chase/attack it. This is working really well and I will continue this way until he doesn't even bat an eyelid to the hoover. Of course I will reward him for not batting an eyelid...

Silveralice - Thank you for your useful comments. The more information about dog behaviour I read, the more confusing it gets! I think my dog is a high energy, boisterous over excited puppy. I am less worried about his biting and nipping than I was (although I would still like to discourage it because it REALLY hurts)!

keys wrote: »

... you must try your best to remove anything your dog may chew in the early days . The reason being for this is if they have access / you let them chew slippers / other objects other than dog toys . They then do not understand the difference between toys and other household items, which then will cause destruction in your beloved items in later life. For example if you let your puppy chew a toweling slipper then they will not understand why it is wrong for them to chew a luxury towel you have on your radiator in the bathrrom. Also what ive always found very good pratice to go with this is that I was taught, is to only let them play with their toys at certain times when they have your full attention to play with them {preferably before meal times when you have the most attention from them}

Thanks for your advice. I have tried to keep the house tidy but he is so quick at pinching things. He pinches my shoes the very second I take them off, or he pinches my slippers before I can get my feet in them! He will 'give' on command (after me saying it a few times and offering him a swap of cheese) but I have to catch him first. I know I shouldn't chase him so I try to get him to come to me by letting him know I will give him some cheese if he comes to me. Once he has come to me I ask him to 'give' before he can have his reward. He is learning to do this but he's not great at it yet (he's only been with me for 14 days so I wouldn't expect any more from him). I have 2 computers in my lounge because I work from home and he sometimes grabs hold of the cables. I shout 'NO' in that instance because it's dangerous, but I usually have to get hold of the cable and ask him to 'give' it to me. The other things he pinches are tissues and baby wipes which he tries to grab while I'm cleaning up his wee. Sometimes I say 'NO' and he will just watch me and I praise him well for doing that, but other times he ignores me completely and runs off with the tissue. I usually win by doing the swap for cheese thing but it's quite difficult to get tissues off him! He thinks it's a game. He does the same thing with pebbles and sticks in the garden. He picks them up and then darts about, not letting me catch him. I try to ignore him so he gets bored of the game but there have been a few times when I've been worried he'll swallow a stone.

I agree that it's a good idea to get toys out for a play session rather than having them laying around all the time, but to be honest I do let him have toys when I'm working (from home and in the same room) otherwise he just jumps up and nips me the whole time! I have a large pen in the lounge that I put him in when my back is turned for his own safety and I let him have toys in there so he doesn't get bored. When he is crated overnight I only let him have his nylobone and his knotted sock (they are safe) so he can chew. I think I will have to choose some toys for his playpen and set 'special ones' aside for designated playtimes. I admit I have toys laying around but it's because I've been trying to grab something quick to distract him with when he bites me. Which is most of the time...

keys wrote: »

You sound like a very good pet owner and your puppy sounds very normal and I wish you both all the best for your new companionship.

Thank you for saying that.

Raksha

Just wondering - how often are you feeding him? Also, Science Plan doesn't often cause hyper puppies, but I have known it before. Would you consider changing to something like Burns, or Nutro?

Lemony

Raksha wrote: »

Just wondering - how often are you feeding him? Also, Science Plan doesn't often cause hyper puppies, but I have known it before. Would you consider changing to something like Burns, or Nutro?

He is getting 4x 25g meals of Science Plan puppy dry food per day as he is 9 or 10 weeks old. The vet weighed him and told me that as we are not sure what breed he is I should weigh him regularly to check he is putting on weight and adjust his food accordingly. Yes, I would consider changing his food if I need to, but at the moment I think he is easily excited because of his breed/temperament rather than because he is hyperactive.

keys_2

Thanks for your advice. I have tried to keep the house tidy but he is so quick at pinching things. He pinches my shoes the very second I take them off, or he pinches my slippers before I can get my feet in them! He will 'give' on command (after me saying it a few times and offering him a swap of cheese) but I have to catch him first. I know I shouldn't chase him so I try to get him to come to me by letting him know I will give him some cheese if he comes to me. Once he has come to me I ask him to 'give' before he can have his reward. He is learning to do this but he's not great at it yet (he's only been with me for 14 days so I wouldn't expect any more from him). I have 2 computers in my lounge because I work from home and he sometimes grabs hold of the cables. I shout 'NO' in that instance because it's dangerous, but I usually have to get hold of the cable and ask him to 'give' it to me. The other things he pinches are tissues and baby wipes which he tries to grab while I'm cleaning up his wee. Sometimes I say 'NO' and he will just watch me and I praise him well for doing that, but other times he ignores me completely and runs off with the tissue. I usually win by doing the swap for cheese thing but it's quite difficult to get tissues off him! He thinks it's a game. He does the same thing with pebbles and sticks in the garden. He picks them up and then darts about, not letting me catch him. I try to ignore him so he gets bored of the game but there have been a few times when I've been worried he'll swallow a stone.

I agree that it's a good idea to get toys out for a play session rather than having them laying around all the time, but to be honest I do let him have toys when I'm working (from home and in the same room) otherwise he just jumps up and nips me the whole time! I have a large pen in the lounge that I put him in when my back is turned for his own safety and I let him have toys in there so he doesn't get bored. When he is crated overnight I only let him have his nylobone and his knotted sock (they are safe) so he can chew. I think I will have to choose some toys for his playpen and set 'special ones' aside for designated playtimes. I admit I have toys laying around but it's because I've been trying to grab something quick to distract him with when he bites me. Which is most of the time..

The best thing I could advise about the stealing of items which I have also found very useful in the past {however this does seem a slow progress at the time with older dogs especially }but it does certainly pay off with consistency and time .Which is great for the future .
Is whenever he steals anything like baby wipes etc is to ignore this behavouir , and the second he does it get up walk into another room -Most times he will probably follow you . Then whenever he isnt in the room with the item in question { like the baby wipe } you then remove the item . The most important thing is to make sure he does not see you do this . Soon your pup will realise that this behavouir does not get him anywhere, and it also shows No attention to what the item is .
He will soon give up on doing this as long as you continue consistently . I found that if one of my dogs did this in the front room with items I would walk into the kitchen and after they followed I would close the door on them { leaving the pup in the other room } I would then remove the item and place it in my pocket out of his eyesight and then let him back into the room again showing him no attention . They soon give up and also forget what they have just done.
As with you feeding your pup when he does this creates the idea it is just a game .
As for the wires he tries to chew I know this will be very hard for you to do but stick with it and he will follow you into another room. If he doesnt then make an exciting noise in the other room that will get his attention { maybe opening and shutting the back door for example } .
For this short period of training I would suggest getting some wire covers . they are very cheap and you can get them for a couple of pounds and they are easy to put on
http://www.amazon.co.uk/C121-Cable-tidy-2m/dp/B000COQ6CK/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=diy&qid=1267007733&sr=8-9

They also sell them on the market / ebay and the poundshop sometimes in different colours .

I did not realise you worked from home. So yes you are doing the correct thing of giving him toys when you are working to play with and especially when you are away from home
Another good item I find helps there bordom when you are busy or at night is
http://www.petsathome.com/shop/training-treat-ball-for-dogs-by-wlpet-13549

Which makes it fun for your puppy , you can also make these yourself and place there favorite treats inside for hours of fun
.

Raksha

I try and keep to these rules with kids and dogs:

Ignore what you can ignore
Distract from what you can't ignore (for safety reasons - chewing cables etc.)
Teach alternative behaviours and make them more rewarding - chewing chew toys instead of table legs, raggers instead of hands/clothing.
Give plenty of opportunity to do the right thing (training, but every minute of every day is a training opportunity, even if it's 'only' to train a 'settle' command, which is probably one of the most important commands my Gwen Bailey Puppy School owners ever learnt)

PS - Gwen has re written The Perfect Puppy recently, because she felt some changes needed to be made as it wasn't being understood correctly. I think the new version is 2009.

Lemony

keys wrote: »

... whenever he steals anything like baby wipes etc is to ignore this behavouir , and the second he does it get up walk into another room - Most times he will probably follow you. Then whenever he isnt in the room with the item in question { like the baby wipe } you then remove the item.

That sounds great in theory but I don't think it will work with my puppy. He actually tries to eat the baby wipes (and sticks and fabric) which worries me a bit since they are not biodegradable and I assume they won't break down easily in his stomach? He doesn't drop the items of his own accord unfortunately, no matter how much I try to distract him (which is why I'm using the 'swaps' method). At least if I offer him a treat he thinks returning items to me is a good thing.

keys wrote: »

... feeding your pup when he does this creates the idea it is just a game.

I wondered if swapping items for treats would make him think he was being rewarded for stealing in the first place but a lot of trainers seem to use the 'swapping items' technique to get dogs to return stolen items. I agree he probably thinks it's a game but I'd rather do this than end up shouting at him.

Thanks for your advice regarding the wires, but I have laptop computers constantly plugged in and it's those wires he likes to bite. I don't think I could tidy them any better than they are already tidied!

I like the treats ball you linked to. I'm going to buy him some new toys when I next get the chance as I saw him playing well with a few toys at the puppy party (more about that later).

Raksha wrote: »

Gwen has re written The Perfect Puppy recently, because she felt some changes needed to be made as it wasn't being understood correctly. I think the new version is 2009.

That is interesting as I did find the book a little confusing. In one part of the book she seems to suggest that tuggy games should be avoided if your dog growls if you wouldn't be happy for him to growl when playing tug with children as an adult, but in another chapter she seems to say tuggy games are ok. I have just checked and I have the 2005 version. Perhaps I have the version she thought wasn't being understood? I will see if I can get the newer version from the library.

Thanks for the other advice in your post.

tandraig

hi Lemony - I just thought i would say that back when I had my dogs Barbara Woodhouse was the Guru! and I thought she was totally wrong! she used the chain choke collar (which disgusted me) and this totally (to me) unnatural way of reinforcing commands (pressing on the dogs hindquarters to make them sit)! so with dog No1 Anni the staffy, I did it my way (much gentler and through repetition and reward - and as she was a smart dog - I really thought i had cracked this dog training lark!!! then along came dog No2 Meggy - great I thought - a working breed - must be easier than a fighting breed!!! oh dear, was I wrong................dead wrong! she was excitable and hyperactive and boy did she nip me betweens licks of affection! yet she was so sweet with the kids and my OH! he couldnt do much training cos of his hours he worked yet i noticed that she took more notice of him than me............training sessions were disasters - I felt like a complete failure and meggy just didnt seem to be learning! then along came Roger Mugford with his Halti and at least I could take her for walks without risking life and limb!!! oh the tales i could tell of her pulling me over, through hedges and once over a garden wall when she jumped it!!! I didnt agree with all his methods but adapted the very calm quiet manner he used then in conjunction with the deeper voice we started to get somewhere!!
she wasnt as bright as Anni (which i had to take into account) but she was more of a glutton and I found she learned quicker if she could see and smell her reward - or it kept her attention focused - not sure which). she needed shorter lessons, but more of them than Anni and i learned NOT to leave anything i didnt want destroyed in her reach - wires for tv etc were run through plastic pipes where she could reach them to chew (I mean those drainpipes not garden hose!). her toys - I soon realised that she didnt know the difference between HER toys (rubber) and our toys ie. rubber soled trainers, flip flops, the kids toys. so we solved that one by rubbing her new toys in her bed before giving them to her - and every time we cought her with our toys would go and get one of hers to swap. it did work and she learned not to play with our toys. but we never did manage to teach her NOT to steal food which was left unattended!!!!
hope this has helped Lemony - I think what I am trying to say is that dogs are individuals and what works for some or many may not work on yours - but you are the expert on your dog and its easier to adapt the dog trainers methods if you agree with them and know that will suit your own dog.

oh and by the time Meggy was about 18 months she had a repertoire of 'tricks'
the sit, stay,down, come, stop, she also did - roll over, high five, low five, and play dead! but she would NOT do them for nothing - the last four were her party peices and she always had to see her reward! she also learned the one where you put the treats on paw or nose and say not yet - then on being told ok would flip them in the air and catch them! so perseverance does pay off! if someone had told me when she was six months she could do all that - I wouldnt have believed them - I couldnt even get her to sit!

Sammy_Girl

Hi Lemony,

When my 4yo dally cross was a pup he used to act just like yours. The solutions that worked best for us were:

1. When he started to nip our body parts, we would say very loudly "ah ah". Normally the loudness of this would stop him in his tracks. We would then always keep one of his chew toys close by and used that to play with him straightaway.

2. We taught our dog "leave it". If he took anything he wasn't supposed to (shoe, tissues, anything really), we would use the "leave it" and then substitute for either a treat or toy, which ever was closer

I think the key is consistency. Just like toilet training. It may seem like you're doing the same thing over and over and over again, but it does sink in with the dog. And when you're able to take him out for walks he'll be able to wear himself out completely!

With regards to the Hoover, I've spent years trying to fathom that one out. He absolutely hates it. I now shut him in another room when I'm hoovering


The above is just my personal experience as a layman. I am no expert in dog behaviour whatsoever. I just love my dog as much as you do and want him to be healthy and happy.

I wish you the best of luck in bringing him up to be a fine young man

S x