PLEASE HELP... with my aggressive puppy!

tandraig

silveralice you just brought back a memory for me! thanks! I was playing tug with my staffy anni, and my young daughter tried to join in by holdin her hand on the rope higher than mine. at the time anni used to win by biting the rope higher and higher until i let go or get fingers nipped! anni immediately let go then picked up the rope at the other end and ragged us about until my daughter was laughing so much she let go - then anni let go and we all just sort of started cuddling and stroking her! I KNEW that dog was smart - but right now i realise just how smart she was!
oh sorry OP - just a meander down memory lane there - but for your own prob - I still think that not allowing the dog to nip and putting it down and walking away will teach it that biting is not acceptable - especially if accompanied by a firm NO.

Lemony

My friend is the manager of the local RSPCA and a lot of dog behaviourists are very dubious and are NOT recommended by them at all. A lot of the so called qualifications aren't worth the paper they are written on. I know nothing about the people who wrote the articles - they may or may not be very good. Everyone seems to have different opinions and training methods and I have to choose which I prefer. It's not easy! I wanted to train to become a pet behaviourist myself but my RSPCA friends strongly disapproved. They only use one behaviourist that they have known for many years because too many pet behaviourists gain their accreditation through dubious online courses. I know there are some great animal behaviourists and trainers out there but there are also some very bad ones.

I have not said anywhere that I don't play games with my dog. I said I don't encourage tuggy games when he gets too rough. He gets over excited and lunges at me biting my legs, wrists or whatever he can and draws blood. I know he is playing but he is being too rough. If I don't give him the message that he is playing too rough then what will happen when he is a much bigger, stronger dog? The book I am reading by Gwen Bailey says that you shouldn't encourage behaviour that you wouldn't like in an adult dog. She asks how you would feel about a dog growling at a child even in play. She does not say that tuggy games shouldn't be played at all but she does say that you have to be in control and the dog has to stop when you decide. Tuggy games encourage my dog to bite me even more including on the face if he can reach. I know it is excitement but even so I shouldn't encourage it surely?

I came here to ask for advice because I wasn't sure if my dog was just acting like a normal puppy or if he was being too aggressive or was overly excitable. This thread is rapidly turning into a debate about whether the 'top dog' theory is true and who is the best animal behaviourist. What I need is advice on how to deal with his biting.

The book that was given to me is by Gwen Bailey and is called The Perfect Puppy.

Lemony

Silveralice wrote: »

Lemony, the author and dog trainer Jean Donaldson explains the tug toy thing well. Of course a dog growls when playing with a tug toy, because it's excited about "killing" the toy, not because it's thinking about ruling the world (as she says). When other family members are joining in the tug toy game, that makes it a fun shared game between family members. As sarabe says, it doesn't mean the puppy wants to dominate you any more than a child wants to dominate its parent just because they are kicking a football around together. It's just a fun activity and a way for the puppy to let off energy in a way that it's designed to do. If you have a very bitey puppy, surely anything he'll bite which isn't your leg has to be an improvement?

I don't think I have said anywhere that I think my dog is trying to dominate me. If nothing else I think he is too young to be doing that! I didn't say his growling was a problem to me either, although I'm not sure I want to encourage it. I said his biting, nipping and pinching was really hurting people (especially me) and I wanted advice about how to manage it. I have been trying to encourage him to play with toys but he gets too excited and bites ME! And yes I know I'm doing something wrong which is why I posted this thread in the first place...

Lemony

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Your way isn't working; Sarabe does this for a living! The article that was linked to was written by a behavioural scientist, not someone just plucking theories out of thin air.

I know my way isn't working - that's why I posted this thread! I said I wasn't sure if I agreed with the article because it seems to imply that if you apply the 'pack theory' you won't be dealing with the dogs real issue. Many behaviourists believe in the 'pack theory' but they still determine whether a dog has fear aggression or whatever. Believing in the 'pack theory' doesn't automatically mean that you are not looking at the psychology of the dog and trying to understand why he is behaving as he is. I also think that different things work on different dogs so there is nothing wrong with trying a few different things.

Dogs are pack animals and I do think they look to humans for guidance. I believe they need to be taught what is appropriate behaviour and what isn't (just like children do) but I'm not completely hung up on the 'top dog' thing. I said I sometimes move my dogs bowl when he is eating which should reinforce the top dog thing BECAUSE I WAS REPLYING TO SOMEONE WHO SUGGESTED IT. The reason I started doing it is actually because I want him to be comfortable with me moving things near him when he is eating and so that he doesn't feel threatened or posessive if I ever need to take things from him. I also look inside his ears, check his teeth, and wipe his eyes every day so he is comfortable being handled this way if he ever needs to be examined. My sister has a dog that was not socialised as a puppy and he has to be anaesthetised just to be examined by the vet (this is another reason I'm worried about my dog biting as my sister's dog is aggressive and cannot be trusted with strangers, other animals or children).

sarabe

Lemony wrote: »

I know my way isn't working - that's why I posted this thread! I said I wasn't sure if I agreed with the article because it seems to imply that if you apply the 'pack theory' you won't be dealing with the dogs real issue. Many behaviourists believe in the 'pack theory' but they still determine whether a dog has fear aggression or whatever. Believing in the 'pack theory' doesn't automatically mean that you are not looking at the psychology of the dog and trying to understand why he is behaving as he is. I also think that different things work on different dogs so there is nothing wrong with trying a few different things.

Dogs are pack animals and I do think they look to humans for guidance. I believe they need to be taught what is appropriate behaviour and what isn't (just like children do) but I'm not completely hung up on the 'top dog' thing. I said I sometimes move my dogs bowl when he is eating which should reinforce the top dog thing BECAUSE I WAS REPLYING TO SOMEONE WHO SUGGESTED IT. The reason I started doing it is actually because I want him to be comfortable with me moving things near him when he is eating and so that he doesn't feel threatened or posessive if I ever need to take things from him. I also look inside his ears, check his teeth, and wipe his eyes every day so he is comfortable being handled this way if he ever needs to be examined. My sister has a dog that was not socialised as a puppy and he has to be anaesthetised just to be examined by the vet (this is another reason I'm worried about my dog biting as my sister's dog is aggressive and cannot be trusted with strangers, other animals or children).

I didn't see where you had written this before but in case anyone else is reading who thinks this is a good idea please read this article.

And then I'll bow out of this thread.

Understanding and preventing food guarding.
　

Introduction


Dogs possess a basic inborn instinct to protect their food. It is a survival instinct. All mammals have this instinct to some degree or other.

The instinct to protect their food within the domestic environment may be latent in some dogs, but it is there. It could surface at any time, if the dog feels the need to defend its survival resource.

What happens to this food guarding instinct, whether it remains latent, or develops into full blown food guarding with growling, snapping, lunging and even biting, is usually a direct result of his learning. The learning that humans provide.

The problem for the dog is that what is a perfectly natural and healthy behaviour, often inadvertently instigated by misguided human behaviour, can ultimately end in the dog finding himself homeless, or worse, dead. Food guarding is seen as aggression, aggression is seen as unacceptable in a dog in today’s modern society and it is the dog that often pays the price.

This article has been written in an effort to bring an understanding to how food guarding can be prevented or resolved.

If I were to get cross with your for stealing my chocolate, or chips or pizza, you would probably consider that understandable. I might say, "don’t do that", or "Eh, they are my chips!" No one would see it as aggression, just an attempt to protect what was yours, against the threat of my stealing it.


　
Lets look at this from the dog’s point of view………


How food guarding can come about


Fido the puppy comes into his new home. His owners love him and all is well.
As Fido grows, he becomes more confident and outgoing and one day on the park runs off and won’t return, is unusually pully on his lead and jumps up at a passing stranger with muddy paws, making both stranger and owner cross. Fido’s, owner has read some old fashioned dog training book and wonders if Fido is getting "Dominant"?
　
He decides to test this out by seeing if Fido will let him take his food off him. He read this in a book.

When next feeding Fido, he reaches down and takes the bowl. Fido freezes and stares indicating his discomfort. Fido is surprised, there has never been a threat to his food before. The owner misses the signal that his dog was uncomfortable with this action, it was too subtle. But the dog didn’t growl, the owner is reassured. All is well.

The next Day Fido is really naughty. He jumps in a smelly pond chasing ducks and he stinks really badly. He refuses to come back when called and makes the owner late for breakfast. His owner decides that he must do something about this dog and he decides that he will implement a regular routine of removing the puppy’s food to show his authority.

Fido who is very hungry after a hard morning chasing ducks, tucks in to his breakfast. As he is eating, the owner reaches down to take the food. Fido is more prepared this second time, he is now aware that his "stare" did nothing to prevent the removal of his food last time his owners hand approached his bowl. He is now ready to take more serious action. He utters a low warning growl as the hand approaches his food.

Fido’s owner, though aware he was testing his dog’s reaction did not actually expect this reaction, is shocked and withdraws his hand. Fido continues eating; glad his message has got across. All is well in Fido’s world but not his owners.

Owner spends the day pondering Fido’s behaviour. He really can not have Fido behaving this way, Dog aggression as he sees this to be, is a dangerous business, he knows that. He decides to take further action.

When feeding Fido next day the owner decides if Fido growls he is going to scruff him, as it says in the book, or smack him to punish his misdemeanour and make it clear that he, the owner, is the boss, as it says in the book. His hand approaches the bowl, Fido growls, aware that this worked last time. Owner grabs Fido by the scruff, pushes him to the floor and shouts at him.

Really angry now, the owner removes Fido’s food and doesn’t give it back. Fido is very frightened and hungry too! He does not understand. Eating used to be a simple, necessary pleasure. Now it seems whenever there is an owner around when he eats, there is tension. Owner tries to steal his food, when Fido says he doesn’t like it, the owner shouts and causes him pain and fear and takes his food away.

Fido decides the best thing is to keep the owner well away from the food in an effort to relieve the tension and avoid the shouting and scruffing and food removal.
.
The next day, owner places food on floor, both dog and owner are now tense, wondering what the outcome of today’s feeding session might be. Fido immediately goes into growl mode, summoning up his courage he gives his best "I’m not happy with you being here" stare and growls and curls his lips at his owner. He hovers over his food, standing stiff, glaring menacingly. "Back off" he growls. "Chill out about this food thing" he wishes, "go sit in the living room" he says. As the owner takes a step closer, he lunges, teeth displayed and snaps at the air. The owner, now scared, retreats. Fido resumes his eating, unnerved and worried that such tension arises at feeding time, but relieved that the owner has left his food, he is hungry!

The owner is horrified at this sudden display of ‘aggression’, his cute puppy has turned into an ugly, vicious, dog. He is outraged and has visions of what might happen if he ever marries and has children, with this dog around. He feels compelled to fix it. Adrenalin rushing and determined to show his dominance over the dog, he roars at the dog, and reaches down, once more for the dog’s scruff. The dog with reactions three times faster than that of a human, interprets the owners move and desperate to avoid more scruffing or the removal of his survival resource, bites the owner’s hand before it reaches the bowl.

All is far from well now in Fido’s world or his owners.

From the start of this story, Fido has been progressively put in the situation where he feels it necessary to guard his food. He needs food to live. Fido feels that he has to be on his guard whenever he is eating. He also understands that humans do not necessarily understand, lip curling, snarling, staring, stiffening or growling. The only thing that really makes them back off is biting.

Whatever happens next to Fido, he will never forget that human hands can and do sometimes take away his food when he is eating. He is aware that he must be ever vigilant to the approach of humans. He is now aware that most attempts to communicate - growling, snarling, lip curling, staring, freezing, lunging and air snapping - all normal attempts to AVOID aggression or conflict in the dog world, are not recognised and responded to by humans.

As many food guarders do, Fido ends up in a rescue home. Others find themselves immediately at the sharp end of a needle.

His owner, ashamed at having such an aggressive dog, but too embarrassed to seek help himself, tells the home that he simply doesn’t have time to care for the dog anymore. Fido, an otherwise friendly, well-socialised dog, quickly finds a new home.

There are children in this one and he loves them. They play happily together all day the first day. Fido has good manners and the owners are delighted with him. He is gentle and respectful with the children even the baby. The children have read a dog training book and they give him treats in return for sits. All is well again. Fido loves his new home, his new owners love him and the children are delighted to have such a cuddly, playful new friend. Wouldn’t it be great if the story ended here?

At feeding time they place the bowl on the floor and walk away, Fido is relieved and happy, no action is necessary.

All is well for several weeks. The owners, children and dog are truly delighted.

And then one day, when Fido is eating, Fido’s friend, Rosie the baby, now crawling, toddles toward Fido, on her hands and knees, as she gets closer she reaches out her tiny hand…In an instant Fido remembers that staring and freezing, growling, snarling, snapping, and lunging don’t always work with humans. He has only one option available to him to protect his food……. He doesn’t want to bite Rosie his friend and playmate, but he needs food to live…….

Rosie is scarred by the incident, mentally and physically. Her parents are distraught and cannot understand the sudden change in Fido – he had always been so gentle with Rosie before? And Fido, having bitten a baby is destroyed.


Food guarding is usually easily prevented – follow these points for happy relaxed mealtimes. .

DO NOT FALL INTO THE TRAP FIDOS OWNER DID!

If your dog is happy for you to approach his food or bones when eating, make him even happier, by adding to that food some higher value food like liver. Do this regularly.

Don’t give him things that you later want to take off him. If you do have to remove a bone and you are not confident of your dog’s reaction, call him into another room away from the bone. Bones and chews above all things are more likely to bring about food guarding behaviour because they are long lasting resources.

When your dog is eating a bone, go to him and give him another bone. When your dogs is eating, add food to their bowls.

Hand feeding your dog can to help make it understand that human hands PROVIDE food, not take it away. Use your dog’s daily food for training purposes. This means you may feed your dog from your hand 100 times a day (tiny portions). He'll like your hands. Have other ther people do the same –he'll the like other peoples hands.

If your dog is the sort of dog who will have a bone, chew it, then leave it, but guard it from a distance, then only feed him bones when he is hungry enough to eat them, of the type that he can actually totally consume. Or give them in another room and leave him to it.

If ever your dog growls when eating or at any other time, remember he is only saying, "please don’t take my bone" or "please stop doing that". If I said to you, please don’t take my chocolate would you scruff me or pin me to the floor??? If you did do that, do you think that would benefit our relationship? Do you think that it would make me respect you more???

If a dog growls and you leave him alone then he learns that growling is all he needs to do. GROWLING, IS NOT AGGRESSION, IT IS DESIGNED TO PREVENT AGGRRESSION. It may be undesirable, but it is not aggressive in itself. If you never remove food from your dog he may learn that even growling is not necessary.

If a dog learns that you always provide food and more food or bones and more bones then he is unlikely to guard his food at all.

If you have confirmed food guarder and do not feel confident to try any of the above, then just feed your dog in another room, where he will not be disturbed. At least this way, the food guarding behaviour is not likely to deteriorate.

If your dog regularly guards things or is over protective of his food, toys or other items, and you don’t feel that anything in this article can help, then GET HELP from someone and soon. Unwanted behaviours rarely just "go away" of their own accord, but they are, very often, very easy to resolve once proper understanding is brought to the situation.

This article was written by Denise Mcleod of CaDeLac Dog Training.

Copyright CaDeLac Dog Training

Fire_Fox

Lemony wrote: »

My friend is the manager of the local RSPCA and a lot of dog behaviourists are very dubious and are NOT recommended by them at all. A lot of the so called qualifications aren't worth the paper they are written on. I know nothing about the people who wrote the articles - they may or may not be very good. Everyone seems to have different opinions and training methods and I have to choose which I prefer. It's not easy! I wanted to train to become a pet behaviourist myself but my RSPCA friends strongly disapproved. They only use one behaviourist that they have known for many years because too many pet behaviourists gain their accreditation through dubious online courses. I know there are some great animal behaviourists and trainers out there but there are also some very bad ones.

Then why not ask your RSPCA friends advice? Did you even bother to read the quote in my earlier post? In my industry there is a difference between a state-registered dietician and someone who calls themselves a nutritionist (e.g. Gillian McKeith). Same here, there is a difference between a behaviourist with dubious qualifications and someone who is allowed to call themselves a clinician. For a start this woman has a masters degree, secondly look at the organisations who are willing to accredit her qualifications and experience:

Fire_Fox wrote: »

"Rosie Barclay MPhil is a Certificated Clinical Animal Behaviourist accredited by the Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour. ... Certification is administered by the ASAB Accreditation Committee, which includes representatives from the British Psychological Society, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and theInternational Society for Applied Ethology as well as members appointed by ASAB Council.
Certification constitutes recognition by ASAB that, to the best of its knowledge, the certificant meets the educational, experiental and ethical standards required by the Society for professional clinical animal behaviourists."

Lemony

Thank you everyone for your valuable help and advice.

Sarabe - Thank you for the article. I don't have any problems with my dog at mealtimes. I have moved his bowl and added extra biscuits now and then so that he is comfortable with people being near him when he eats. I'm sure most dogs who growl when people go near their food are just protecting what is theirs and it has nothing to do with challenging for leadership. Of course dogs may have different reasons for being posessive depending on their experiences, but I agree that it is about 'posession'. If it turns out (as some people believe) that I do need to show my dog who is 'top dog' then what I have already been doing FOR DIFFERENT REASONS would have given him that message anyway. That is all I was trying to say.

Fire Fox - I have asked for advice from the RSPCA and write a blog on one of their pages about my dogs progress. Their advice is that I should squeal loudly as one of his littermates would have done so he understands that he has hurt me, but unfortunately this method hasn't worked at all for me! Either my squeal isn't right or he is too bold to be bothered by the noise. Yes, I did bother to read your earlier post when you quoted somebody's qualifications and I was trying to say that being qualified doesn't necessarily mean that a person knows everything. The RSPCA are actively trying to ban some trainers who are very famous (who's practices are widely followed) because they actually do more harm than good and in some cases are even cruel. As I said, I don't know if the people you have quoted are good or not, but qualifications don't in themselves mean that a person knows everything on the subject. We mustn't forget that a lot of animal behaviour articles are theories and are not necessarily fact.

I don't know why this thread has turned into a debate about which behaviour theory and which behaviourist/trainer is best when all I wanted was advice on whether my puppys behaviour was normal? I have experience of older dogs with behavioural issues but I have not kept a puppy before. My dog is biting people quite hard through play and jumping up and biting faces etc. I know he is playing and doesn't mean to hurt anyone. I'm just afraid that if I don't give him a clear message now that his behaviour is unacceptable he will continue to do it when he is older (and obviously adult dogs can't go round biting people). I have not said anywhere that I think he is challenging me - I think he is far too young to be doing that. I know nothing about what happened to him before he came to me as he was found abandoned in a cardboard box. I have no idea if he had enough time to socialise with his mother or siblings, and I will never know. All I can do is try to teach him how to behave around people and other animals and make his life as happy and stress free as possible.

Please could people post about their own puppy biting experiences and give me some advice as to how to discourage it. Does his biting/nipping sound normal or is it a bit excessive? Thank you.

~Chameleon~

You have been given some very good advice in this thread, most of which you choose to ignore. That's your decision. However, you have to realise that asking a question such as this on an internet forum is bound to lead to several differences of opinion on how to tackle the problem. Without prior knowledge of dog behaviour/training you won't know whose advice to accept and which to ignore.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to find yourself a local trainer experienced in dealing with puppies from working dog breeds. Ask your vet or check the APDT website for a trainer in your area.

I won't even start to give you my opinion of the RSPCA, that's a whole different thread

Good luck with him

Fire_Fox

Lemony wrote: »

The RSPCA are actively trying to ban some trainers who are very famous (who's practices are widely followed) because they actually do more harm than good and in some cases are even cruel. As I said, I don't know if the people you have quoted are good or not, but qualifications don't in themselves mean that a person knows everything on the subject. We mustn't forget that a lot of animal behaviour articles are theories and are not necessarily fact.

So you don't trust your dogs veterinarian, your family doctor, Boots pharmacists, your kids teachers, the solicitor that helped you buy your house? Gillian McKeith has nothing to do with a state registered dietician, celebrity dog trainers have nothing to do with a behavioural scientist.

Penny-Pincher!!

Hi Lemony

We have a 9 month old stubborn Scottie who thinks he is the boss! He is like a spoilt child and does everything in his own time:D

He does try to heavy play sometimes with OH's foot and can be quite fiesty, but he gets told "NO!" then if he does it again, he gets sent to his bed and gets a light smack on the bum. It's more a shock thing as it doesnt happen much, but TBH if he bit all the time and be aggressive like your dog, he would get a firmer smack after saying "NO!"

Sending him to his bed is like sitting the child on the naughty step IMHO. He automatically goes to his bed when we have dinner (we have to have in the lounge as Im disabled and have to lay down most of the time)

He is quite obediant and we just point to his bed and he goes.

He is walked at least once a day.

We use short words with him and always have done, so he understands. Sit, down, stay, bed, fetch, walk, food, biscuit etc.

Your puppy is still very young, but I too would be concerned and would want this behavior sorted sooner rather than later. Like children, they need to be set boundaries as they thrive better with routine and regime.

Patience is the hardest thing I think.

You have the right attitude and think you will be fine. Just be consistent and firm, but give love too.

PP
xx