Civil Service - Tupe

Lyncroft

Hello

I posted a few weeks back about voluntary redundancy. I've been accepted and have a few days to think about it.

Personally, I'd probably prefer to stay but I think it's going to get quite difficult in the Civil Service. I work in an area that would be ripe for outsourcing. I realise outsourcing is all to do with TUPE and I've googled it but it's not really clear.

Anyway, how does it work? If the area you're working in is TUPE'd do you have to go? If you go what are your rights regarding redundancy and pensions, etc. Can you get TUPE'd and then get made redundant but on the new company's terms?

I wouldn't trust this lot as far as I could through them and with the national debt being what it is I reckon they're going to try and pull every trick in the book. Definitely a feeling of look out for yourself at the moment and it's not a great atmosphere to work in.

Thanks in advance.

dampsquib

Hi - Been there, ...., got the T-shirt!
TUPE doesn't protect your pension, but it does protect your redundancy/severance compensation (sometimes on an equal value basis where the terms are difficult to replicate). Normally your department will place a contractual obligation on the new employer though, to set up a broadly comparable pension scheme. (eg: I had a cap placed on my index linking, but the death benefit was increased to compensate (Terrific! I'm single). The broadly comparable terms would be checked by GAD (Government Actuaries Department). The day-one compensation terms aren't set in stone though, and future negotiations can erode them. There were plans to enhance TUPE legislation to protect pensions too, but I'm not aware that this has ever happened. New employer can make staff redundant, but I believe that if they plan to do this within 6 months, they have to declare it up front.
You have no right to stay with your current employer.
I hated the thought of being TUPE'd, but now I'm grateful I was. I'm now a "gentlemen of leisure" having been made redundant. Had I still been in the Civil Service, I might still be having to work for a living. Thankfully I was old enough to be financially comfortable (just!) without work.
I'll comment further if I think of anything else useful.

outofworksch

have a read here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/BusinessTransfersandtakeovers/DG_176391

Lyncroft

Hello

Thanks to you both.

Hmm, doesn't look good to me. I guess it's possible to be TUPE'd, then after 6 months they can make you redundant (if they didn't get the business they were expecting for example) and you're out the door possibly on the basic legal redundancy terms.

I can see why they're going to be keen to outsource loads of stuff.

Andy_L

Lyncroft wrote: »

and you're out the door possibly on the basic legal redundancy terms..

No, you will get your full CS redundancy package, unless you have agreed a change to your contract

Lyncroft

I thought that was for only the first 6 months?

dampsquib

No, there is no time limit on how long the TUPE protection lasts. In my case, having been TUPE'd twice, it was over 10 years before I was made redundant but still benefited from my CSCS (Civil Service Compensation Scheme) terms.
You only lose those terms, either if you give them up as an individual (because you accept a different contract), or if all staff agree to the terms being altered in negotiations conducted by your union (your employer could, for example, "buy" your terms off you by offering you a better than normal pay rise one year).
I would expect most employers to give you, as an individual, an option at some point to go onto their "standard" contract. In my case one employer offered me the same pay + a company car, if I switched contracts. The car was tempting, but I would have given up flexi-time, privilege days, some of my annual leave and my compensation terms, and on balance, they were worth far more to me than any car.

Lyncroft

Thanks dampsquib.

So for you TUPE worked out well.

The change in the compensation arrangements is now something to consider. Under new voluntary redundancy I think they can offer you whatever is within the legal guidelines (1 week per year?) up to a max of 2 years salary, and compulsory is the lower of 60k or 2 years salary.

It's probably a bit down the line yet but I've found the Civil Service can push things through quickly if they really want to. As The Clash said "Do I stay or do I go?" ha ha. Having done 20 odd years I really don't want that feeling of getting shafted by them lol.

Wookey

If you have another job to go i would jump at it, however if you don't, bare in mind you may not be entitled to some benefits. Been thru this several years ago and knew 6 months in advance when our finish date was, i was able to get myself sorted out again quite quick, the company we would have been tupe'd into where laying folk of after about 4 months. If you have long service and a good severance its hard to turn down.

getmore4less

Lyncroft wrote: »

I thought that was for only the first 6 months?

TUPE redundancies can be made immediately as long as they are done properly and for the right reasons.

Been though two TUPE in the first got left behind in the failing part, those that knew what was going on made sure they were working in the bit to move to the succesful company and most made between £100k-£500k on shares.

The second time(company did go down eventualy) was part of the transfer and a few years later had to fight for our redundancy terms(and won).

If you see it geting messy and the payout is decent I would capture those service years now I can only see the squeze happening.

If you know the srt of company that would take on the kind of work you do then that may be a ood place to look for new work.

As a fall back/tide me over/pay the bills job the 2011 Census are lookng for people.


On the payout you say around £40k if paid after April that will nearly all be tax free(future work just gets taxed sooner).

At a rough guess you can uplift the payment in weeks by 3/2 to convert from gross to net if tax free.
ie 30 weeks gross pay tax free is like 45 weeks take home pay.


What I did was work it out in takehome pay weeks, that tells me how long it would last if I was spending it all.

My take home pay budget included saving so if I stop saving I worked out what the payment would be in spends weeks, then if you adjust the budget taking out work related expences it stretches even further.

amanda40

Hubby job was outsourced from HMRC 4 years ago - he tuped over - We thought long and hard ( and worried) about whether it was the right or wrong thing to do. He was made redundant in Dec09 - again we were worried if he would get the same package he would have got with HMRC, but he did and a bit more! ( voluntary so enhanced slightly) He is a man at leisure at the moment but just looking for part time work. I am still with HMRC and would love to get made redundant as it is soo different now.