section 59 - outrageous highway robbery?

Lum

thickbuilder wrote: »

they wont give you an s59 if you have done nothing wrong

Not true. That is why people have a problem with the legislation. There are no safeguards and they can be given out based on hearsay without the officer having even seen an offence take place.

liam8282

Paradigm wrote: »

Shhhhh... it's speeding up the process

Like I said, they're issued on a whim but never mind you can always go to the IPCC

I was offering advice for those who said they can't appeal, and keep bleating on that they are so hard done by.

liam8282

Paradigm wrote: »

As I have said, we'll have to agree to disagree! If you believe all is well with S59 then good for you... contrary to popular opinion they are not only issued to 18-25 year olds with modified cars!

Hope you never get one

I am only 27 myself, and the cars I have had and currently drive would be classed as "boy racer" cars.

The thing is though, I have never been stopped by the police, don't have any points on my licence...:A, so I cannot see where the idea comes from that police go round dishing these S59s out on a whim.

Maybe if the drivers didn't make a show of themselves and do wheel spins coming out of car parks, as in the letter previously posted, they wouldn't draw so much attention to themselves and the offences they are committing.

If you have done nothing wrong you can appeal, if you have done something wrong just accept your punishment.

Lum

That's fine, but since an S59 can be given on an unsubstantiated complaint from a mumber of the public, you are not safe.

Imagine I'm an elderly neighbour and I take offence to you working on your car on your driveway or on the street. You are doing nothing wrong but I don't like it because it makes the neighbourhood look untidy.

I have a word with the local bobby. "That Liam at number 82, he was up and down, up and down this road at all hours of the morning in his bloody Clio (or whatever), wheelspinning, radio really loud".

Suddenly you get an S59. For the next 12 months you resolve to be on good behaviour, drive like a saint, but I still don't like your car and in a month or two I make the same complaint. "Kids these days, I know you had a word with him, but he takes no notice, he's been at it every Saturday night, my grandkids are terrified when they stay over, surely you can do something"

*bam* another S59 there goes your car, £150 to get it back.

The appeals process is a joke. The chief constable is hardly impartial and the IPCC don't have the rights to remove the S59 notice. There is no way to challenge it in court unless you're rich.


Just because it doesn't affect you currently doesn't mean you should ignore it and let it carry on. First they came for the jews, and all that.

Paradigm

liam8282 wrote: »

I am only 27 myself, and the cars I have had and currently drive would be classed as "boy racer" cars.

The thing is though, I have never been stopped by the police, don't have any points on my licence...:A, so I cannot see where the idea comes from that police go round dishing these S59s out on a whim.

Maybe if the drivers didn't make a show of themselves and do wheel spins coming out of car parks, as in the letter previously posted, they wouldn't draw so much attention to themselves and the offences they are committing.

If you have done nothing wrong you can appeal, if you have done something wrong just accept your punishment.

Good luck to you fella, hope you're right

liam8282

Lum wrote: »

That's fine, but since an S59 can be given on an unsubstantiated complaint from a mumber of the public, you are not safe.

Imagine I'm an elderly neighbour and I take offence to you working on your car on your driveway or on the street. You are doing nothing wrong but I don't like it because it makes the neighbourhood look untidy.

I have a word with the local bobby. "That Liam at number 82, he was up and down, up and down this road at all hours of the morning in his bloody Clio (or whatever), wheelspinning, radio really loud".

Suddenly you get an S59. For the next 12 months you resolve to be on good behaviour, drive like a saint, but I still don't like your car and in a month or two I make the same complaint. "Kids these days, I know you had a word with him, but he takes no notice, he's been at it every Saturday night, my grandkids are terrified when they stay over, surely you can do something"

*bam* another S59 there goes your car, £150 to get it back.

The appeals process is a joke. The chief constable is hardly impartial and the IPCC don't have the rights to remove the S59 notice. There is no way to challenge it in court unless you're rich.

Seriously though how likely is that?!

What is to say Liam at 82 isn't the one who actually has a problem with the old dear next door, and Liam is the one who has rang the police and complained about them for whatever reason? As others have said the S59 isn't just for 18-25 year olds.

The police do actually have to have a reason to give you the S59 in the first place, to be honest I don't know enough about S59 to know if they can be posted out without a police officer even witnessing or having any proof of any offence.

Lum wrote: »

Just because it doesn't affect you currently doesn't mean you should ignore it and let it carry on. First they came for the jews, and all that.

Oh dear, the plight of the S59 being compared to the holocaust now.:shhh:

liam8282

59 Vehicles used in manner causing alarm, distress or annoyance

(1) Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which-

(a) contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) (careless and inconsiderate driving and prohibition of off-road driving), and
(b) is causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public,
he shall have the powers set out in subsection (3).

(2) A constable in uniform shall also have the powers set out in subsection (3) where he has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle has been used on any occasion in a manner falling within subsection (1).

(3) Those powers are-

(a) power, if the motor vehicle is moving, to order the person driving it to stop the vehicle;
(b) power to seize and remove the motor vehicle;
(c) power, for the purposes of exercising a power falling within paragraph (a) or (b), to enter any premises on which he has reasonable grounds for believing the motor vehicle to be;
(d) power to use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of any power conferred by any of paragraphs to (a) to (c).
(4) A constable shall not seize a motor vehicle in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by this section unless-

(a) he has warned the person appearing to him to be the person whose use falls within subsection (1) that he will seize it, if that use continues or is repeated; and
(b) it appears to him that the use has continued or been repeated after the the warning.
(5) Subsection (4) does not require a warning to be given by a constable on any occasion on which he would otherwise have the power to seize a motor vehicle under this section if-

(a) the circumstances make it impracticable for him to give the warning;
(b) the constable has already on that occasion given a warning under that subsection in respect of any use of that motor vehicle or of another motor vehicle by that person or any other person;
(c) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that such a warning has been given on that occasion otherwise than by him; or
(d) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that the person whose use of that motor vehicle on that occasion would justify the seizure is a person to whom a warning under that subsection has been given (whether or not by that constable or in respect the same vehicle or the same or a similar use) on a previous occasion in the previous twelve months.
(6) A person who fails to comply with an order under subsection (3)(a) is guilty of an offence and shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

(7) Subsection (3)(c) does not authorise entry into a private dwelling house.

(8) The powers conferred on a constable by this section shall be exercisable only at a time when regulations under section 60 are in force.

(9) In this section-

"driving" has the same meaning as in the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52);
"motor vehicle" means any mechanically propelled vehicle, whether or not it is intended or adapted for use on roads; and
"private dwelling house" does not include any garage or other structure occupied with the dwelling house, or any land appurtenant to the dwelling house.

Can't see anything about getting a S59 in the post if a neighbour complains about you?

A uniform officer has to issue it on the basis of reasonable grounds....

Again if you think the S59 has been issued unreasonably you are calling into question the issuing officer and their abuse of power, which would be dealt with by the IPCC.

Lum

define "reasonable grounds", there have been plenty of cases where a complaint from one member of the public has been deemed to be "reasonable grounds" in the eyes of the officer involved and there are no checks or safeguards in place.

I've never been on the receiving end of an S59. I'm 31, white, and my car looks like an old mans car so I don't get hassled by the police and don't have to worry about S59 it just alarms me that legislation exists that allow the police to easily take anyone's car away for any reason, even one they just made up.

Slightly OT but I'm also increasingly alarmed by the way that this country demonises it's youngsters. Yes there are plenty of hooligans and criminals and the justice system needs to stop letting them back onto the streets, but legislation like this targets the vast majority who are law abiding and tars them with the same brush

liam8282

Where are all these "plenty of cases"?

It's all just hear say, all beit by the people on the receiving end of the S59 so not too bias is it?!

The wording says it has to be issued by a uniformed officer based on reasonable grounds, so how exactly this is acted upon or interpretated is down to the police.

But just going by what a neighbour might have said, does not appear to be strong enough reasonable grounds, maybe if it was more than 1 neighbour all making the same complaints, that would be pretty strong reasonable grounds.

As I said I am 27, now I drive a mk4 golf, personalised number plated, lowered suspension, 17" alloy wheels, front back and side skirts, sub in the boot, but still never any problem with the police. Previous car was a Corsa Sport, tinted windows, alloys, skirts etc, no problem with police.

I have friends that drive Subaru Impreza's, no S59, friends that drive Mini Coopers, no S59.

So the opinion that police are dishing out S59 on a whim, to all people who happen to drive "boy racer" cars doesn't wash with me.

Then again, if you drive around committing petty offences, when or if you are caught you should accept the punishment.

It is like saying if I was drunk in a town (generally causing a nuisance) and got a fixed penalty notice, I wouldn't pay it because I wasn't "that" drunk, the fact is your drunk and have committed an offence, so just deal with it and learn from the mistake.

Jakg

liam8282 wrote: »

The police do actually have to have a reason to give you the S59 in the first place, to be honest I don't know enough about S59 to know if they can be posted out without a police officer even witnessing or having any proof of any offence.

They can be issued with a witness statement without the officer having seen anything.