Rail fare fine - £3 to over £400 - any help?

daveb975

ajdyer wrote: »

On a lighter note

I spoke to South West trains and they have agreed to reduce the fine by a considerable amount

I explained the situation to them and offered to settle things before we get to court

That is good - I am glad you are getting somewhere.

I tend to just pay these demands when they come through as I can never get a straight story out of anyone at SW Trains.

I got on a train from Surbiton to Woking last year. I had bought a return ticket, but managed to lose the outward portion on the train. The 'Revenue Protection Officer' at Woking said he would have to issue me a penalty fare, but that a successful appeal would be straightforward as I had the return portion and receipt.

I made the appeal and sure enough the judgement came back saying that I would still have to pay the fine! I paid it, but made an individual complaint against the officer which hopefully got him reprimanded.

Unfortunately, it appears that these revenue protection officers are no better than cowboy wheel clampers and traffic wardens - mind you if they are paid on commission who can blame them?

ajdyer

Seems people have two views on this

Those who think that people deserve the punishment of upto £1000 fine no matter what the circumstances

And the rest..............................

pompeyrich

ajdyer wrote: »

Seems people have two views on this

Those who think that people deserve the punishment of upto £1000 fine no matter what the circumstances

And the rest..............................

The original punishment was £20, if people choose to ignore this then a court appearance and bigger penalty is inevitable. The £1,000 is a maximum and I would guess the normal fine would be around £50-£100 plus costs.

I believe a penalty fare is justified otherwise people would never buy a ticket and only pay when caught. There are probably a few genuine cases where the ticket office is closed, the ticket machine vandalised or whatever and I would hope, maybe niavely, that common sense would prevail in those circumstances. .

Rail_Staff

daveb975 wrote: »

mind you if they are paid on commission who can blame them?

SWT Revenue Protection staff get no commission on either penalty fares or tickets sold.

daveb975

Rail_Staff wrote: »

SWT Revenue Protection staff get no commission on either penalty fares or tickets sold.

That is good to know, but makes it even more of a mystery why this particular officer was so keen to issue me a penalty fare AND assure me that it would not be upheld!

I realise that issuing it was probably the correct process, but I was deliberately misled at the same time.

dzug1

ajdyer wrote: »

Seems people have two views on this

Those who think that people deserve the punishment of upto £1000 fine no matter what the circumstances

And the rest..............................

Well not 'whatever the circumstances'.

But here OP is alas 100% at fault:

He's a regular traveller, he knows, or should know the rules

He ignored them

He then ignored the court

What more is there to say?

ajdyer

dzug1 wrote: »

Well not 'whatever the circumstances'.
But here OP is alas 100% at fault:
He's a regular traveller, he knows, or should know the rules
He ignored them
He then ignored the court
What more is there to say?

He thought he would be able to pay a conductor on the train or pay the extension/single fare at the other end. The OP asked the fare issuer if he could pay and was told that a fine was the only option.

He didn't ignore anyone and has the phone records to prove he called IRCAS after each letter came through. He left vociemails and they never returend his calls. He also sent a letter that "never" turned up.

How did he ever ignore the court? This is the 1st communication he's had from the court.

To the original poster it seems a bit strange how his phone calls and letters went unanswered, "forcing" South West trains to involve the courts and up the costs significantly.

newfoundglory

daveb975 wrote: »

That is good to know, but makes it even more of a mystery why this particular officer was so keen to issue me a penalty fare AND assure me that it would not be upheld!

I realise that issuing it was probably the correct process, but I was deliberately misled at the same time.

It is very stupid to enter into any discussion what so ever with any revenue protection staff. Ignore them, and just walk away. Give your name and address if you have to, pay whatever fare you owe, but politely decline to pay any penalty there and then. Thats the best thing you can do. If you can, record what they say on your phone and take picture of them so they can be identified at a later date if they will not give you their full name. If you are harassed, call the police immediately.

Some revenue protection have difficulty in determining whether you have a valid ticket.

With the advent of Oyster cards, ticket inspectors can be caught breaching data protection laws by carrying out individual journey tracking for the specific purpose of issuing penalty fares. That is looking back at 8 weeks worth of where you have been. This is not allowed.

TfL and ToC's will try to claim that this is part of prevention and detection of crime... however, it would be quite difficult to make this claim in court if you had already paid for your journey and had a travel card. Trying to issue penalty fares when you have not touched in even though you have a travelcard which covers your entire journey and all zones you travel though. In such cases you can even claim compensation, as you would have suffered direct loss as a result of unlawful processing of your personal data.

Not only is it highly irregular data processing, its against the penalty fare section of the Greater London Authority Act and could also be a serious offense under the Fraud Act 2006 (which defines the general offense of fraud by false representation). Some revenue protection staff could certainly be prosecuted for fraud. I have met at least one during my travels.

FARE-COP

This appears to be a straightforward case of failing to pay a rail fare, being issued a penalty notice and failing to abide by the conditions of issue as advised in writing on the notice.

Having said that, I am not going to get bogged down with the whys-&-wherefors of the PF system, you have to deal with the situation that you are faced with now.

All the waffle about delaying tactics will not help you. The printed penalty fare notice issued to you stated that you must pay or submit a written appeal within 21 days of issue. If you failed to do so you only have yourself to blame for the consequences.

If you believe that you have strong mitigation for being on that train without a valid ticket and if you have been charged with 'intent to avoid a fare', then plead not guilty and the case will be adjourned for a trial to take place. Do not believe that just because you are not happy about what happened, that you will be acquitted. Given your posting so far that is very unlikely although the prosecution will have to prove their case.

If you have been charged with failing to show a valid ticket on demand contrary to National Railways Byelaw 18.1 in accordance with Section 219 of the Transport Act, then you have been charged with a strict liability offence.

If there was a facility to buy a ticket and you boarded a train without getting one and without being able to show evidence that you were given permission to do so by an authorised person, it is almost a foregone conclusion that you will be convicted.

You will be ordered to pay a fine (not exceeding 'Level 3' on the standard scale, which is a maximum of £1000) and may be ordered to pay the train company's costs, plus the unpaid rail fare and a victim surcharge of a further £15.00

The total cost may vary, but it is likely to be made up as follows:

If you plead guilty the fine could be anywhere between £30 and £175 plus the costs and that appears to be a claim for £280, plus the fare, plus £15.00.

If you plead not guilty and are convicted, the Magistrates may impose a higher fine.

If you are convicted by the Court and can show that you have difficulty in paying, you will be given time to pay by instalments.