where will this end?

jazzys

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

I have not read all the thread but just need to say this.

My son has always worked in retail. He has NEVER been able to book leave over Chriatmas. He knows that. We, his family, know that.

Your wife must also have known it. Why then did you all arrange this trip for over Christmas? Why didn't you do it for some other time ? You all must have kown she would not be able to book the time as leave.

If she had then become ill over Christmas, then that could just have been dealt with as sick leave. She could then have had her holiday leave and seen her family at some other time.

You're all to blame here really, for expecting a retail worker to be able to have Christmas off and making plans accordingly, when you all knew (or at least she did) that it would not be possible.

why would you bother commenting if you haven't read the thread? All the answers to your questions are in there.

J

Uncertain

pitkin2020 wrote: »

I think people need to realise the doctors note means jack !!!! in reality, yes it shows your employer some over worked doc has given you a reason for your absense but if you keep going to the docs every other week and getting signed off it wont protect you from being dismissed no matter how convinicing your sick note is. Too many people think "I got a docs note they can't do anything", all I can say is keep putting them into your employer and you will see what they can do about it!!

You are mixing two issues here......

You are quite right that that if you have a history of medical absences the employer can take steps to dismiss on the grounds of capability, however genuine the illness may be. At an extreme you might be on a life support machine for a year (you can't be more ill than that!) and the employer could go through due process and terminate your employment without any comeback.

This is a different situation. This lady had a week or so off sick (certified by her doctor) but has otherwise a perfectly acceptable sickness record. The only point at issue is the unfortunate remark (threat if you must) that she made.

However, she has a medical history that suggests that this was due to mental health issues and her doctor is apparently willing to write to the firm and say so.

If the firm sack her for this, or take any disciplinary action, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning if it goes to a tribunal.

They cannot possibly get another doctor (even if she agrees to see one) to tell them FOR CERTAIN if she was or was not too ill to work on a particular week in the past. He can only tell them how her current health might affect her work now and in the immediate future.

Yes, like almost any employment situation, they could just sack her and take the view that if it goes to an ET it will end up costing them some money. The law doesn't allow for the manager or HR dept to be carted off to jail for breaking these employment laws, just a civil remedy.

In a way every employee in the country is in this position. If they don't like you the firm CAN just sack you, but you may be able to get some financial compensation if they don't do it properly.

andygb

jazzys wrote: »

why would you bother commenting if you haven't read the thread? All the answers to your questions are in there.

J

You really do yourself no favours with some of your replies.

A couple of questions:
You booked the holiday (three and a half weeks over Christmas) back in the Summer.
When did your ex partner request the time off, did she give her employer reasonable warning?
How long has she worked for the company?
How much sick leave has she had in the last year?

seven-day-weekend

jazzys wrote: »

why would you bother commenting if you haven't read the thread? All the answers to your questions are in there.

J

Sorry I spoke. I had read half the thread and it was early in the morning. Thought my input might have some validity, but you obviously think otherwise.

Wishing you well.

Pete111

Uncertain wrote: »

It IS a contractual right IF it is part of your contract of employment. Agreed, an employer doesn't have to offer any CSP but if they have CONTRACTED to do so then they have to pay it - subject to any conditions in the contract.

I have personally never had or seen a contract that says it is paid at "managers discretion" but that is not to say that none have such a clause. Frequently there may be a qualifying period of service before being eligible. The number of weeks on full and / or half pay may well depend on length of employment. Almost certainly medical certificates will be required. However, these are all definite criteria and I can't imagine a clause saying (in effect) Joe Bloggs in HR will decide if you are ill not your doctor! But maybe yours has such a clause?

However, even then it would be open to challenge if this was not applied fairly. I fail to see how a manager making arbitrary medical judgments, contrary to qualified medical opinion could be held to be fair.

It is in our handbook here and in the contract of employment. It's absolutely at our discretion whether CSP applies (99.9% of the time it is granted automatically thoUGH, I've only invoked it once in 2+ years)

We also have a policy by which we can insist on a second opinion via a 'company Dr' at our cost. If we asked for this an employee refused then we would likely discipline them and/or remove or reclaim CSP.

Agree that in cases where the sickness was in the past the latter is very hard to use effectively. However our retained employment lawyer was fine with our being able to insist on this (we revamped all the policies in 08 so my memory of this conversation it is fairly fresh)

P

andygb

Pete111 wrote: »

We also have a policy by which we can insist on a second opinion via a 'company Dr' at our cost. If we asked for this an employee refused then we would likely discipline them and/or remove or reclaim CSP.

Agree that in cases where the sickness was in the past the latter is very hard to use effectively. However our retained employment lawyer was fine with our being able to insist on this (we revamped all the policies in 08 so my memory of this conversation it is fairly fresh)

P

Having worked in mainly law firms for the last twenty years, this is also my understanding of how this works. around ten years ago, I developed severe back pain, and was referred to a physio by my GP. My company then asked me to see their doctor, and I agreed, no problem.
As this case is relatively new (only the last couple of weeks), the supermarket would be well within their rights to obtain a second, independent opinion. Stress/depression as an illness does not suddenly come and go, and a specialist would be more able to determine the severity or causes of any given problem.

jazzys

andygb wrote: »

You really do yourself no favours with some of your replies.

A couple of questions:
You booked the holiday (three and a half weeks over Christmas) back in the Summer.
When did your ex partner request the time off, did she give her employer reasonable warning?
How long has she worked for the company?
How much sick leave has she had in the last year?

Yes i booked our holiday in the summer. My ex wasn't going anywhere though, i was having a holiday and staying in her home.
Yes she gave her employer loads of notice.
She has worked for the company for 7 years
she has had no sick leave in the last year

J

euronorris

jazzys wrote: »

euronorris states in his reply that he believed she had alraedy had "quite a bit of time offf sick that year", i have no idea where he gets that info from as i have not said that at all and she had in fact had NO time off at all.

Hi Jazzys! :hello:

I did not state that I believed she had already had quite a bit of time off sick. I was talking hypothetically, and that it was possible she had already had time off sick, as this would be quite likely for someone who is suffering from stress. No offence meant.

EDIT: I stand corrected. I did say she'd had time off. My mistake.

Oh, and I'm a SHE, not a he. But most people on the forum think I'm male because of the name. lol

Uncertain

Pete111 wrote: »

It is in our handbook here and in the contract of employment. It's absolutely at our discretion whether CSP applies (99.9% of the time it is granted automatically thoUGH, I've only invoked it once in 2+ years)

We also have a policy by which we can insist on a second opinion via a 'company Dr' at our cost. If we asked for this an employee refused then we would likely discipline them and/or remove or reclaim CSP.

Agree that in cases where the sickness was in the past the latter is very hard to use effectively. However our retained employment lawyer was fine with our being able to insist on this (we revamped all the policies in 08 so my memory of this conversation it is fairly fresh)

P

Interesting comments....

Obviously it is possible to put all kinds of terms in an employee handbook. That doesn't in itself mean they are watertight and binding and they cannot of course take away a person's statutory rights.

It is a bit like putting up a sign in a car park saying we are not responsible for any damage. If you are negligent you are responsible whatever your sign says!

I agree you can probably have a clause requiring an employee to see a company doctor under certain circumstances. Indeed some occupations may require frequent medical appointments. In the absence of such a clause you cannot force an employee to see another doctor. I have personally been in this position. Generally it is best for the employee to agree. As I said above, the doctor has a clear legal duty to the patient and not to the company, whoever pays him.

SandC

codwidow wrote: »

Does no one see this as a member of staff who has previously suffered from mental illness before in a total state begging for time off as they are unwell and offering holiday instead of wanting to add to their sickness record ?

No because the OP only started saying she thought she was heading for a breakdown after he received responses on here that didn't support his ex wife's actions. The original posts implied, no stated, that she wanted to book time off to spend time together as a family, the whole issue of holiday was in order to spend time with both of her children, one of whom lives overseas. There was no mention of stress and breakdowns then - not to mention the backache which appeared from nowhere.