Employing a non contract cleaner?

TomsMom

Steve_xx wrote: »

The poster didn't actually say that.

Market rates for salaries are one thing, but fairness and reasonableness is another. In reply to how businesses might stay afloat by paying their cleaning more, I would advocate that those at the top end of the salary scales could well afford to take a little less out the business in pursuit of fairness to those at the bottom of the pile. Not rocket science, is it?

I assume that you aren't happy cleaning up after other people for £6 per hour?

Steve_xx wrote: »

I'm not viewing it from any socialist or communist vein. Some people are paid far too little, while others are paid far too much. Then there's a huge central area of people who are paid reasonably. What I'm saying is that it isn't reasonable for an odd person or two to take too much out of a business while a cleaner struggles. It's just not fair.

Whether you are happy or not is highly relevant. £6 per hour will normally spell unhappiness and a feeling of being taken advantage of. I'm sorry if you don't appreciate that.

If either of those comments were aimed at me then you are talking our of your rear end. You don't know the circumstances of our business. We were not some fat cats sitting at the top of some big concern with multiple outlets raking in vast profits but a tiny family business with one outlet able to offer jobs to three or four people. But I can tell you than all those people we employed over the years had more in their pay packet than my OH and I ever had during the time we had the business. The business income paid for the business expenses and employee's wages. We would have been better off being employed by someone else even at £6 per hour. And before you say if we didn't like it we shouldn't have gone into business, the fact is that we did like running the business and being our own bosses and we knew we were never going to get rich by it.

You haven't said in which area you live, as if it's London then there would be no real comparison in wages with most of the rest of the country whatever the job.

I can always provide you with a list of people round here who pay just the minimum wage, maybe that will help you kick start your crusade on low pay.

Steve_xx

TomsMom wrote: »

If either of those comments were aimed at me then you are talking our of your rear end. You don't know the circumstances of our business. We were not some fat cats sitting at the top of some big concern with multiple outlets raking in vast profits but a tiny family business with one outlet able to offer jobs to three or four people. But I can tell you than all those people we employed over the years had more in their pay packet than my OH and I ever had during the time we had the business. The business income paid for the business expenses and employee's wages. We would have been better off being employed by someone else even at £6 per hour. And before you say if we didn't like it we shouldn't have gone into business, the fact is that we did like running the business and being our own bosses and we knew we were never going to get rich by it.

You haven't said in which area you live, as if it's London then there would be no real comparison in wages with most of the rest of the country whatever the job.

I can always provide you with a list of people round here who pay just the minimum wage, maybe that will help you kick start your crusade on low pay.

My comments were not aimed at you specifically or otherwise. They were my general view.

My comments on here are derived from my personal experience of over 10 years management of the cleaning contract for the company for which I worked. Therefore, I can see the situation from both sides of the fence. The directors of the company, like with most companies, wanted the cleaning task to be performed well for the least possible cost. In reality, it was nigh on impossible to obtain and retain quality staff on the minimum of pay and therein lies the dilemma.

Generally, employers do not hold their cleaners in high esteem. They are the forgotten sector. However, the poor cleaner generally comes to prominence only when they don't do a good job. They are often criticised but seldom thanked or praised and they certainly don't figure when it comes to being given merit pay rises.

sunshinetours

Steve_xx wrote: »

My comments were not aimed at you specifically or otherwise. They were my general view.

My comments on here are derived from my personal experience of over 10 years management of the cleaning contract for the company for which I worked. Therefore, I can see the situation from both sides of the fence. The directors of the company, like with most companies, wanted the cleaning task to be performed well for the least possible cost. In reality, it was nigh on impossible to obtain and retain quality staff on the minimum of pay and therein lies the dilemma.

Generally, employers do not hold their cleaners in high esteem. They are the forgotten sector. However, the poor cleaner generally comes to prominence only when they don't do a good job. They are often criticised but seldom thanked or praised and they certainly don't figure when it comes to being given merit pay rises.

Thanks for clarifying your interest in the sector.
I totally concede that there are many contract cleaning companies who make vast sums of money as it has always been a very profitable sector (for the reasons you mention). This usually as you say, leads to the management becoming very rich from their business. However do I think this is morally wrong? I guess it depends on whether you believe in Capitalism and free markets or not.

I do believe that someone who either sets up or invests in such a company and becomes successful whilst keeping comfortably the correct side of the law should be able to decide themselves what rewards they decide to give themselves out of it. I believe that also means paying your staff a reasonaable and fair salary in line with accepted market trends

Would I be happy earning £6 an hour - no I wouldn't if I compare it to my current circumstances, but I have also studied, trained and worked hard (as many others have) and chosen a career that hopefully minimises the chance of me being in a minumum wage job. I appreciate not everyone has that choice but many do but choose not to take it

This however is totally different to you pointing out at some small business that they should be giving their cleaner a raise way over the market rate? Surely you can see the difference here.

Many small businesses round the country have their owners earning well under the minimum wage for the hours they out in. I always take my hat off to anyone starting up a small business from scratch. Many not in the know, assume that if you run your own business you are minted!

TomsMom

Steve_xx wrote: »

My comments were not aimed at you specifically or otherwise. They were my general view.

My comments on here are derived from my personal experience of over 10 years management of the cleaning contract for the company for which I worked. Therefore, I can see the situation from both sides of the fence. The directors of the company, like with most companies, wanted the cleaning task to be performed well for the least possible cost. In reality, it was nigh on impossible to obtain and retain quality staff on the minimum of pay and therein lies the dilemma.

Generally, employers do not hold their cleaners in high esteem. They are the forgotten sector. However, the poor cleaner generally comes to prominence only when they don't do a good job. They are often criticised but seldom thanked or praised and they certainly don't figure when it comes to being given merit pay rises.

I think what you have just said proves that you shouldn't generalise in a debate like this. That may be what generally happens, but you were specifically targetting me, branding me a user who takes advantage of people by deliberately paying them what in your opinion was poor wages.

You have to concede that what I was paying at the time was above the average for the area.

All of our staff were treated with equal respect, from the washer-up - chef - cleaner - waiting staff - all were equally important in running the business, there was no one of them any less important than the other, and it was made clear to them that they were all valued equally. That was why they all had an equal share of the tips, not just the waiting staff as so often happens.

And you still haven't said which area of the country your work was situated to make the comparison. As already stated, at the time £6 per hour was a good rate for this area although I expect in the capital it would be a lot more.

Steve_xx

sunshinetours wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying your interest in the sector.
I totally concede that there are many contract cleaning companies who make vast sums of money as it has always been a very profitable sector (for the reasons you mention). This usually as you say, leads to the management becoming very rich from their business. However do I think this is morally wrong? I guess it depends on whether you believe in Capitalism and free markets or not.

I do believe that someone who either sets up or invests in such a company and becomes successful whilst keeping comfortably the correct side of the law should be able to decide themselves what rewards they decide to give themselves out of it. I believe that also means paying your staff a reasonaable and fair salary in line with accepted market trends

Would I be happy earning £6 an hour - no I wouldn't if I compare it to my current circumstances, but I have also studied, trained and worked hard (as many others have) and chosen a career that hopefully minimises the chance of me being in a minumum wage job. I appreciate not everyone has that choice but many do but choose not to take it

This however is totally different to you pointing out at some small business that they should be giving their cleaner a raise way over the market rate? Surely you can see the difference here.

Many small businesses round the country have their owners earning well under the minimum wage for the hours they out in. I always take my hat off to anyone starting up a small business from scratch. Many not in the know, assume that if you run your own business you are minted!

Yes I take your points and agree in general.

I do believe in capitalism and the free market. But that's not to say there shouldn't be some regulation. There is some regulation, in the form of the minimum wage. I actually don't think it's high enough, but it's a start.

I too would take my hat off to anybody starting a business in this day and age. I'm not against anyone making decent profits or even vast profit out of what they do.