Employing a non contract cleaner?

EvilMonkey

1984ReturnsForReal wrote: »

Thank you.

So they should register as self-employed.

I would love to know your opinion on what is likely to be the HMRCs thoughts on the OPs posts:

"Employing a non contract cleaner? "

"I'd be happier paying the hard working cleaner the agencies cut!"

"we really liked our last lady and would have happily paid her the agencies money and cut them out!"

1984 - From your first post, you provide abrupt semi answers in an agressive tone. YOU clearly have an opinion, which despite your posts so far, I am actually interested in, so please either say what you have to say or butt out. I'm afraid any further posts along similar lines to your previous posts where you hint at doom and gloom will have to be filed as trolling which would be a shame as I genuinely want to find out the best course of action.

1984ReturnsForReal_2

EvilMonkey wrote: »

1984 - From your first post, you provide abrupt semi answers in an agressive tone. YOU clearly have an opinion, which despite your posts so far, I am actually interested in, so please either say what you have to say or butt out. I'm afraid any further posts along similar lines to your previous posts where you hint at doom and gloom will have to be filed as trolling which would be a shame as I genuinely want to find out the best course of action.

Agressive tone. Please read above back to yourself & also read DrScots sarcastic attempts at posting. You two corner the market on attitude.:rotfl:

So you dont like one word answers. You, as many are guilty of selective reading. You dont like what you read & become abusive (see above).

You have shown your disregard for your contractual obligations to the agency & I find your attitude towards "business" pretty poor but who am I to judge.

I also believe you should call HMRC up & ask them what their opinion is on tax evasion which you were perfectly happy to consider.

Anyway here is the opinion of HMRC I suggest you have a read of it yourself & post this on the tax board where it belongs. There is more on self-employed hours etc I think you will find that with the below & working the same hours on the same day they will be classed as employed if they dont satisfy below (which they wont in your case)...

As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:

• Do they have to do the work themselves?
• Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
• Can they work a set amount of hours?
• Can someone move them from task to task?
• Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
• Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?

If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:

• Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
• Do they risk their own money?
• Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
• Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
• Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
• Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
• Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?

Employment status isn’t a matter of choice for either you or your workers. It’s a matter of fact, based on key terms and conditions of your working relationship with them - for a list, see the next section. In most cases these terms and conditions will be reflected in your contract with the worker. But even if a contract says a worker is self-employed, if the facts indicate otherwise then the worker may be your employee.
Note that a worker can:

• be both employed and self-employed at the same time - for example, working as an employee during the day and running their own business in the evenings
• change employment status from contract to contract - the fact they were employed on their last contract (whether with you or another employer) doesn’t mean anything if the facts of their next contract point to them being self-employed

Steve_xx

TomsMom wrote: »

I don't see how I was taking advantage of them if I was paying more than most of the other employers here. And if any employee thought I was taking advantage they would not have stayed.

I don't know where you live or what the rate of pay for a cleaner is there, but at the time £6 per hour here was more than most people paid, and most of them are still only paying the minimum wage now. Do you want to blame me for that? City rates of pay are generally more than little out of the way rural places and you can't lay that one on me.



So go tell it to them. Stop having a go at me. Make it a your crusade - find out what all the shops/pubs/catering businesses etc. in rural areas all over the country are paying and then contact them all and tell them how you think they are using and taking advantage of people. Oh and while you're at it, you might like to contact all the cleaning agencies and tell them what you think of them.

You haven't succeeded in winding me up so I suggest you go and pick an argument in someone else's thread because you wont get any further responses.

Of course you were taking advantage of them and the situation in your area. In your earlier post you mention that you paid your staff holiday pay and even went as far as to give them a "share" of the tips. You said "share" of the tips, not all of the tips. I think it's quite disgraceful.

sunshinetours

1984ReturnsForReal wrote: »

Agressive tone. Please read above back to yourself & also read DrScots sarcastic attempts at posting. You two corner the market on attitude.:rotfl:

So you dont like one word answers. You, as many are guilty of selective reading. You dont like what you read & become abusive (see above).

You have shown your disregard for your contractual obligations to the agency & I find your attitude towards "business" pretty poor but who am I to judge.

I also believe you should call HMRC up & ask them what their opinion is on tax evasion which you were perfectly happy to consider.

Anyway here is the opinion of HMRC I suggest you have a read of it yourself & post this on the tax board where it belongs. There is more on self-employed hours etc I think you will find that with the below & working the same hours on the same day they will be classed as employed if they dont satisfy below (which they wont in your case)...
[/LIST]
[/LIST]

I think you are reading too much into the posts. people often say "employ" a cleaner when they just want to use the services of a cleaner. The only reason I read the OP wanted to pay a cleaner direct was to get a good cleaner and pay them a fair "wage" which means they are happy to pay the full rate they were paying to the agency to the cleaner.

Most cleaners unless they work for an agency will be self employed and yes I am sure like many cab drivers, window cleaners and football managers there will those who take cash only and ask no questions....

Interesting your take on the Revenue list published on their website. I think I can safely assume you are not an accountant or tax professional. The question of status is never usually as simple as the Revenue would like you to believe in their tidy little bullet point list which strangely enough suggests most self employed people would be employed.... funny that. Still keeps us accountants busy I guess when enquiries get raised.

sunshinetours

Steve_xx wrote: »

Of course you were taking advantage of them and the situation in your area. In your earlier post you mention that you paid your staff holiday pay and even went as far as to give them a "share" of the tips. You said "share" of the tips, not all of the tips. I think it's quite disgraceful.

One persons "share" of the tips - 10 staff, so total tips divided by 10 equals a share of the tips? not rocket science.

Your posts seem to be reading too much into everything and your points about paying over marrket rate salaries are quite plainly ridiculous -how would that business stay afloat exactly? Don't blame the businesses if people can choose not to work and be better off financially on benefits

TomsMom

Steve_xx wrote: »

Of course you were taking advantage of them and the situation in your area. In your earlier post you mention that you paid your staff holiday pay and even went as far as to give them a "share" of the tips. You said "share" of the tips, not all of the tips. I think it's quite disgraceful.

Good god, you really do have a problem.

Share of the tips = 4 people employed = tips shared 4 ways. How the hell is that disgraceful?

Sunshinetours didn't find that hard to understand so one just has to assume you are so blinkered in your view and your mission to pull me to pieces you can't actually understand what is being said properly.

As for taking advantage, I've already covered that, done to death. Grow up.

Steve_xx

sunshinetours wrote: »

One persons "share" of the tips - 10 staff, so total tips divided by 10 equals a share of the tips? not rocket science.

Your posts seem to be reading too much into everything and your points about paying over marrket rate salaries are quite plainly ridiculous -how would that business stay afloat exactly? Don't blame the businesses if people can choose not to work and be better off financially on benefits

The poster didn't actually say that.

Market rates for salaries are one thing, but fairness and reasonableness is another. In reply to how businesses might stay afloat by paying their cleaning more, I would advocate that those at the top end of the salary scales could well afford to take a little less out the business in pursuit of fairness to those at the bottom of the pile. Not rocket science, is it?

I assume that you aren't happy cleaning up after other people for £6 per hour?

Steve_xx

TomsMom wrote: »

Good god, you really do have a problem.

Share of the tips = 4 people employed = tips shared 4 ways. How the hell is that disgraceful?

As for taking advantage, I've already covered that, done to death. Grow up.

Thanks for your clarification. You're entitled to your view, but I make no apologies for not sharing it.

I think that'll be an end to it.

sunshinetours

Steve_xx wrote: »

The poster didn't actually say that.

Market rates for salaries are one thing, but fairness and reasonableness is another. In reply to how businesses might stay afloat by paying their cleaning more, I would advocate that those at the top end of the salary scales could well afford to take a little less out the business in pursuit of fairness to those at the bottom of the pile. Not rocket science, is it?

I assume that you aren't happy cleaning up after other people for £6 per hour?

Crikey what utopian economy are you from then? Even socialist and communist eceonomies (which I assume is the vein you are from) have the top end getting richer whilst the poor stay poor

So you don't think the system is at fault then in answer to my original post?

Whether I am happy or not is not really relevant is it? Certain jobs attract certain rates of pay, doesn't make the people who do these jobs any different to others. Choose a different job if you don't like it

Steve_xx

sunshinetours wrote: »

Crikey what utopian economy are you from then? Even socialist and communist eceonomies (which I assume is the vein you are from) have the top end getting richer whilst the poor stay poor

So you don't think the system is at fault then in answer to my original post?

Whether I am happy or not is not really relevant is it? Certain jobs attract certain rates of pay, doesn't make the people who do these jobs any different to others. Choose a different job if you don't like it

I'm not viewing it from any socialist or communist vein. Some people are paid far too little, while others are paid far too much. Then there's a huge central area of people who are paid reasonably. What I'm saying is that it isn't reasonable for an odd person or two to take too much out of a business while a cleaner struggles. It's just not fair.

Whether you are happy or not is highly relevant. £6 per hour will normally spell unhappiness and a feeling of being taken advantage of. I'm sorry if you don't appreciate that.