Stairs "non-habitable" loft - create problems later?

chappers

FilthyLuka wrote: »

Converting a loft to a store room requires the same compliance with the building regulations as it does to creating a new habitable room.

That may be true in the strictest terms but for a residential house storing the usual stuff we all keep in our lofts that is incorrect, provided the room is not deemed as habitable then there are no requirements to comply with building regulations.
A previous poster mentioned that any pitch staircase could be fitted provided all the fire regulations had been met, this is also untrue as the pitch of the stairs forms both a part of the regulations concerning general safety and means of escape in the event of fire, also dorr closers and means of escape windows are no longer a legal requirement.

I do however agree that once a staircase has been fitted it is very likely that the loft space will find itself being used more and more as another room in the house.
Personally i would either find the money to do a proper conversion or in vest in a decent loft ladder(some of the fold down ones are pretty much like a set of stairs anyway)

leveller2911

chappers wrote: »

.
A previous poster mentioned that any pitch staircase could be fitted provided all the fire regulations had been met, this is also untrue as the pitch of the stairs forms both a part of the regulations concerning general safety and means of escape in the event of fire, also dorr closers and means of escape windows are no longer a legal requirement.


I make windows and stairs and if a loft in an existing house is converted it is a legal requirement to put in emergancy exit window,.The pitch of the stairs is NOT restricted to 42 degrees as its NOT a new buid.....

Sorry but I don't agree. Unless here in East Sussex its different and the BC officers are interpreting the regs differently.

A cpl of months ago I made the Joinery for a roof conversion.The local building control officer insisted that the windows had a clear opening of no less than 485 mm(we did thise by making the casement sashes rebated together and excluded a Mullion).Totally disagree with your stair coments.Stairs regs on new builds are not the same as existing dwellings with regards to attics/roof spaces.

marcg

Well, we're getting far too detailed now - fire regs are a matter for negotiation now, it's no longer a case of rules. For the OP: google "loft ladders" - there are a number of options that are probably easier to use than the one you have at the moment and will cost a couple of hundred quid. If you go to the extent of having a proper staircase made, I suggest (if you can afford it) you contact an architect and a structural engineer and have a loft conversion designed. Ask that the conversion fits within the current permitted development rules and you won't require planning permission. That way your staircase will fit within a future loft conversion. Reckon on around £2-2.5k in fees. If you know a decent structural engineer you might get enough info for about £500 (the info being how high would the new floor be) but I'm loathe to recommend this since this does massively increase the risk of something important being missed (such as the whole thing might be a waste of time since a loft conversion is unfeasible anyway).

vivatifosi

Just a quick thought as an alternative... We put an electric hoist up to ours. Makes getting things up and down easy, we still have a loft ladder to get up there ourselves but everything else gets "hoisted". May be worth considering - much less exhausting and feels a lot safer too.

chappers

[QUOTE=leveller2911;28268871
I make windows and stairs and if a loft in an existing house is converted it is a legal requirement to put in emergancy exit window,.The pitch of the stairs is NOT restricted to 42 degrees as its NOT a new buid.....

Sorry but I don't agree. Unless here in East Sussex its different and the BC officers are interpreting the regs differently.

[/QUOTE]

Loft conversions are my business and since the ammendments to the approved documents in 2006 it is no longer a requirement to fit a means of escape window in a loft conversion provided a fire protected escape route is created to the final exit. In some circumstances it is allowable to use a window as a means of escape and then they must be as you describe.

Any new staircase other than a replacement must comply with the 42 degree rule unless it is of alternating tread design.

The building regs are totaly open to interetation as the approved documents are only an acceptable method of complying with the actual regulations

stalbanshouseholder

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses. We've spoken again with local building control and have also had a look at the various regulations ourselves.

Although we don't wish to create a habitable room, as such, we followed the advice of several people here and investigated whether we could in fact meeting the regulations for a full blown loft room. Here's what we found:

* Fitting of velux windows needs to be checked and signed off by building control. This isn't a problem.
* The staircase has meet the Schedule K guidelines and we've confirmed with our builder that they will.
* The ceiling joists that are currently in place - 2x4 - can be made to meet the load bearing regulations. This is because there is a load bearing wall in the centre, and the builder will hang further supports from the existing RSJ, creating a span of under 2 meters.

But, we can't meet the following regulations:

* Roof insulation to a U value of 2. We can't do this because the depth of insulation required would not fit between the existing rafters, meaning we'd bring the ceiling height down another 1.5 inches, making the ceiling height of the room too low to be usable and also causing, potentially, problems with height from the middle of the top step to the ceiling.
* Fire doors would have to be fitted all the way down which presents a problem not on the first floor, where we can do this, but on the ground floor where there is a large open plan room that the staircase opens (also open plan) onto. To meet regs here we'd have to box in the staircase, fit a fire door to the corridor, and install a sprinkler system to the open plan living space beyond.

So we are back, it would seem, to square one.

Our plan now is to get the Velux and floor strengthening signed off by building regs, then to install the staircase, fit insulation between the rafters and fit a fire door at the top of the stairs. This second bit of work - stairs, insulation and firedoor - would not get signed off because we're worried that if we had building control around they'd deem the room to be habitable.

What we find really disheartening about this is that having permanent stairs up, and installing insulation, is almost certainly better from a fire, safety, and environmental perspective than the current situation but we won't be able to get it signed off.

So the question remains, are we simply creating something that will cause us headaches when we go to remortgage or sell the property, or is the survey likely to merely point out that there is a staircase and that care should be taken to ensure that any regulatory approval has been documented?

Thanks.

marcg

Wow - this is why advice over the internet is never 100% - who'd have guessed you would be able to create only a 2m span and therefore use existing ceiling joists? Actually, can you clarify - is this because the rooms beneath are only 2m wide?

Other than that, it really sounds to me like a dead duck. You may be able to get further with the insulation if you look into Tri-Iso foil insulation (Nasa technology, multiple foil layers, much thinner). But some councils won't accept it. But the reason I say dead duck is if the room is unuseable if you lower the ceiling by 1.5" then it would be barely useable if you could use Tri-Iso. It sounds like your loft simply isn't big enough to justify the expense of converting it. If you're deadset on a proper staircase then get the structural works done as well (to avoid your ceilings collapsing) and don't bother with the Veluxes. You will then be able to get building regs for a storage room and not require insulation (except possibly at ceiling rafter level under the boarding).

Or just do what the rest of the world does and get a decent loft hatch ladder and loft boarding.

Bufger

if it is for storage then you can get a really descent and safe loft ladder that folds out. You could make the loft hatch bigger to accomodate it (or move the hatch to a room where this can be done).

We have a really great hatch and ladder, its very solid and around the hatch in the loft are rails on 3 sides for safety. This is a much cheaper alternative and if you have it all boarded it can also be a very minor selling point.

I know i liked the loft in this house better than an alternative i was looking at that just had a step ladder.

That is if you really do intend on using it only for storage and not an additional playpen for the kids etc

stalbanshouseholder

Hi Marc G - The loft has approximately 4 meters (across) of usable floor space, between two large RSJs that were put in by the previous owners. In the exact middle, running the full width of the house, is a load bearing wall. From RSJ to the wall is under 2 meters. Local building control has confirmed that the information on this website - home-extension.co.uk/tech2.html - is correct, and that a 2m span, with 40cm between rafters, can be sufficiently supported by a 2x4.

You mention getting regs done on it as a storage room. Would this not be possible with the Velux windows installed? Is this generally possible regardless? We hadn't thought of this route.

Bufger - My wife cannot climb a ladder, whether it's substantial, as you and others have recommended, or flimsy like we've got now. This is due to a documented and bonafide health problem relating to her hips/pelvis for which she has been receiving physiotherapy for over two years. This is the main reason we want the permanent staircase - so she can get up and down safely. Well, up and down at all.

Any estate agents or mortgage advisors out there know if doing this work would cause problems with remortgaging or resale?

Thanks again.

poppysarah

I can't climb a loft ladder due to emotional trauma issues about the top of ladders (they seriously bother me, it's part of my vertigo thing) - so I just never climb the loft ladder.

If you want her to use it regularly then it sounds like you want a proper room so have a look in the local paper for a man who draws plans up (cheaper than an architect) and get his advice on how much it'd cost to get it all planned and done properly.