Anyone used Rointe heaters?

Cardew

MobileTony wrote: »

Hello everyone.... just joined yesterday. I have been reading with interest all the threads over the last two years concerning these heaters. The reason for my interest is that I have recently refurbished a small block of 5 one bedroomed flats and I have had fan convector heaters - with both timers and thermostats - installed in all the rooms, except the bathrooms - these had heated towel rails fitted. (There is no gas to the building) Upon inspection the Council have said these heaters are not acceptable and gave me a Rointe brochure (with the 60% saving blurb) telling me that I have to replace the convectors with the Rointe heaters (or similar)to comply, saying the convectors are too expensive to run (The tenants say they are not, but that's another story) 'Cardew' especially has made me think twice about installing these new heaters and I thank him for that - but if I don't do as they say, they will issue an enforcement notice and if I still refuse, they have the right to do the work themselves and send me the bill..! :mad: I am at my wits end to know what to do, so any advice would be very much appreciated. Thanks again, Cardew..!

Welcome to the forum.

How typical of a Council.

I would firstly get the Council worker to contact the Energy Saving Trust(EST)(a Government sponsored organisation) who will tell them in no uncertain terms that the convectors will produce EXACTLY the same heat, for the same running cost, as any other electrical heater.

You might also point out the Advertising Standards Authority(ASA) rulings.

Actually I suspect the reason Councils don't like convector heaters is that some people might put towels or clothes to dry over the heaters; and that can cause problems.

Therefore I can understand their preference for oil filled radiators/panel heaters. However they can be obtained at a fraction of the price of Rointe or other hyped-up systems

Just Google for Panel heaters and look at the selections available here: http://www.hygienesuppliesdirect.com/sub/panel_heaters

or here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/b?ie=UTF8&node=11712381

Some have timers, and even remote control sockets can be obtained for a few pounds.

The tenants can buy £10 fan heaters themselves if they like them so much!

hall5456

Oh boy! this is a mine field indeed. I am new and really need to heat our summer cottage in our property to rent out. We are currently on standard tariff and have storage heaters. It is an all electricity property, too although the main house is conencted to the mains gas approx' 30 metres away. My main goal is to not have to walk up and down to the cottage to turn the bloody heaters on when its cold and nobdy is living there. I was hoping to have fully controlled radiators, and I could save my trips up and down while keeping the house heated at around 15 degrees everyday to stop any damp etc, by using the inbuilt thermostats. These eco 'magic' radiators as Cardew calls them sounded fantatstic.

My rationale was, if I buy them, surely they can't be any worse than storage heaters??

Cardew: I am not an electrician, and you repeatedley mention the 2Kw per hour is 2kw per hour no matter what type of radiator used. I get it and glad you mentioned it as you've probably saved me a packet. However, can you help me understand how my 60W bulb, when replaced with a 60W energy saving bulb, is actually energy saving then if 60w is 60w?? Apologies if there is a simple answer but lets just say I did well at non-engineering related subjects, despite my excellent statistical skills.

Finally, what then are my options? I have resigned myself to perhaps some oil filled radiators with thermostats to cycle the on-off function based on room tempertaure - and then investing in some thermal curtains and new secondary glazing. They can't be worse than storage heaters right?

Any help appreciated.

hall5456

I forgot.. I contacted economyradiators about these posts, and thought i'd share their responses. My first email is right at the bottom, sorry.I am hoping any moderators can let me know if i am allowed to share e-mails like this so i've removed names.

Dear Gareth

I am highly delighted you have given me the “Democratic right to reply”, my response could be directed in so many incredibly effective ways that is hard to know which to choose.

But you are clearly a man who asks many questions and seeks the answers, but like so many of my teachers over the years they often used the technique “ask the pupil searching questions so that the pupil resolve s the problem for themselves”.

Money saving expert ---

· First who are these people (that clearly have very little else to do) and what are their qualifications to provide such in-depth (or lack of depth) comments on products that actually none of whom have trialled ?

· Next why in the thread somewhere, they clearly admit they are paying a price per kw for electric that is well in excess of the markets, so if they are not able to get something simple like that right, how do they qualify as “money saving experts” ?

· Why when one of my highly delighted customers tried to contradict them --- did they simply take a belligerent position and indeed suggest that this customer worked for us ? Could the reverse be true ( a dirty tricks campaign --- see later) ?

· The following is an extract taken from the forum you pointed me to , being an educated man yourself does the following taken from that forum seem like the sort of educated man you wish to take advise from ?


‘Quote’ Taken from moneysavingexpert.com :-

I could dissect this at great length, but who knows, maybe I’m having a brainfart and, on some planet in this great galaxy of ours, this is actually legit and a good idea? ‘Unquote’.




· Next we start working on FACTS---- you will note one of these threads goes all the way back to 2009, so ask yourself if people were giving any real credence to these comments .

Having been selling these products from 4 to 5 years Why does my business DOUBLE in size every year ? By March 2012 we will turnover £4.5 million pa .

Why does my business have £1 million sterling in the bank, with zero debts, £100,000 stock bought and paid for (we take no credit and give no credit) ?

Why do we get around 30 to 40% referral rates from highly delighted customers ?

Why do I have purchase orders on my desk from several leading councils ?

Why do leading ITV studios use my products as well as leading regional newspapers ?

Why do I have emails that come in every week from highly satisfied customers many of whom show me their independent demonstrated results having used the product for the last two winters (the worst for a great many years) ?

Why have we just built a call centre and warehouse that will give us 6 times our current capacity ?

Why is this a multibillion industry in Europe ?

Why with such a lengthy trading history have trading standards not shut me down ? Quite the reverse due to the “apparent” controversial nature of our product we work very closely with them and surpass all requirements.

Why have I not met and untimely demise from a “rabid customer” ?

Why are storage heaters only made in Europe yet the Europeans never used them ?

Why do so many people fall for the biggest scam of them all Economy 7 ?

This is a basic failure of Junior school mathematics !


And finally :-

Rointe --- advertising standards, the sad truth is this was a dirty tricks campaign conducted by “Dimplex” not only did they “blow the whistle” on Rointe, they then went on to use the results in a very aggressive manner, yet in the background they were bidding to buy a factory in France that produces the very product Rointe sells.

Rointe were foolish, but I think it was more naivety than outright devilry, as they sell in Europe they are not used to the incredible (unjustified) prejudice towards electric heating in the UK after all in Europe this type of product is massive.

So their enthusiasm got the better of them.

Actually the Rointe product is very good --- just ugly and expensive but quality of heat and running costs are superb.

Complying with advertising standards is incredibly difficult --- how come company’s selling face cream can get away with the outrageous claims they make ?

But to conclude, yes you can simply buy one radiator plug it in and measure the product, if you specify the product correctly use it correctly, pay the right price for your electric (60% of the Uk pays 30% too much)--- you WILL come back for more.

We would be delighted for you to try one, however.

At this time of year our order book is £20,000 (per day) on a bad day and upwards of £50,000 (per day).

We supply direct from stock pay today we ship tomorrow ---- however we are so incredibly busy if you want to buy one you will need to wait until January as we restrict all enquiry’s to a minimum of 3 + radiators (average order being 5 to 6 at a time).

The demand is so high we do not have time to sell ones and twos --- and to make matters worse couriers at this time of year are appalling so we prefer to stick to multiple radiator orders going out on pallet delivery’s with which we never have problems.

After all this strategy is winning us huge volumes of business.

Hope this helps……………………….




“All statements made are our “own opinion” based on the real life and published running costs of four test rooms which we measured on our own premises”.

“In excess of 30% of all our business comes from referred business from highly delighted customers who have all concluded exactly as we have. As a consequence sales are up by a factor of double year on year to £2.5 million pa and now heading for £4 million pa”.

“To date not one GENUINE complaint”……………………………………….

From:
Sent: 26 November 2011 22:33
To: [EMAIL="info@economy-radiator.com"]info@economy-radiator.com[/EMAIL]
Subject:

Dear Economy-Radiators,



I spoke with a team member about 2 months ago about these radiators as a cost effective, both in installation and in terms of runing, replacement to my storage heaters.



I have now trawled through countless manufacturers, and websites offering similar products, spoken with electricians that may have heard about these products.



I have now succumb to 'googling' the negatives about these products and your company came up as a scam for lack of a better word. Basically, misleading comemnts about the the term 'efficiency' and the savings apparently being made!



Two particular forum threads are below, and one company that was similar to yours was Rointe who made similar claims. They have now been adjudicated by the advertising standards agency.



I have very little confidence in these new electric radiators now and wondered if you can take the time to at least try win me back as I was close to purchasing these very expensive radiators. For example, if it were possible to atleast try one with a consumption meter would be of use - although I suspect, very unlikely!



All the best

Cardew

hall5456 wrote: »

Oh boy! this is a mine field indeed. I am new and really need to heat our summer cottage in our property to rent out. We are currently on standard tariff and have storage heaters. It is an all electricity property, too although the main house is conencted to the mains gas approx' 30 metres away. My main goal is to not have to walk up and down to the cottage to turn the bloody heaters on when its cold and nobdy is living there. I was hoping to have fully controlled radiators, and I could save my trips up and down while keeping the house heated at around 15 degrees everyday to stop any damp etc, by using the inbuilt thermostats. These eco 'magic' radiators as Cardew calls them sounded fantatstic.

My rationale was, if I buy them, surely they can't be any worse than storage heaters??

Cardew: I am not an electrician, and you repeatedley mention the 2Kw per hour is 2kw per hour no matter what type of radiator used. I get it and glad you mentioned it as you've probably saved me a packet. However, can you help me understand how my 60W bulb, when replaced with a 60W energy saving bulb, is actually energy saving then if 60w is 60w?? Apologies if there is a simple answer but lets just say I did well at non-engineering related subjects, despite my excellent statistical skills.

Finally, what then are my options? I have resigned myself to perhaps some oil filled radiators with thermostats to cycle the on-off function based on room tempertaure - and then investing in some thermal curtains and new secondary glazing. They can't be worse than storage heaters right?

Any help appreciated.

Let us adress the simple question first - the bulb.

The old fashioned electric light bulb(incandescent) that we all grew up with usually came in 40w/60w/100w sizes.

These are being replaced the 'energy saving bulbs' (CFL) and for comparison purposes they are given the equivalent rating of illumination.(disputed by some but we won't go there) However the 60w equivalent CFL bulb is only a 11w bulb. See:

http://www.energybulbs.co.uk/products/Energy+Saving+Bulbs/Energy+Saving+Stick+Bulbs/Economy+Stick+Bulbs/Osram+Duluxstar+Stick+Bulb+-+11W+%28BC%2FB22%29/4275733306

So you are simply replacing something that draws 60w with something that draws 11w.

However whilst the illumination is the same the heat produced by the 11w CFL bulb is only 18% of that provided by the 60w incandescant bulb.

The whole point of this thread is simply to point out that a 2kW heater of any variety(I get fed up with saying a £10 fan heater etc) will produce exactly the same amount of heat as any other heater - even a Rointe heater costing many hundreds of pounds.

For your summer cottage any sort of electrical heater like perhaps a £30 oil filled radiator from Argos can be set up with a timer for another £20.

Incidentally, on a different tack, heating -especially to 15C is not an answer to dampness. All heating does is mask the problem because warm air carries more moisture. However your furniture and fabrics will be just as damp as they would be at 2C. In fact dampness is far more of a problem in tropical climates.

The key to preventing dampness is ventilation. If you have a dampness problem you would be far better off buying a dehumidifier and leave that running with the hose in a toilet or bath.

I have a detached cottage as an annex to my house - albeit with gas CH - and I leave it to go down to 5C in winterand only have the CH coming on then to stop frost damage.

hall5456

Thanks Cardew, very helpful!

re: damp, yes, we have the ventilation sorted now; the last tenants literally piled up furniture against walls and left the curtains permanently shut, as well as building up condensation through a variety of methods. The mould was ridiculous, but luckily not deep set. I just thought heat a dry warm room helped, too.

I still think I may pay a little extra for the radiators that look like CH rads just for aesthetics.
Thanks

Cardew

hall5456 wrote: »

I forgot.. I contacted economyradiators about these posts, and thought i'd share their responses. My first email is right at the bottom, sorry.I am hoping any moderators can let me know if i am allowed to share e-mails like this so i've removed names.

What a strange response to your email!(although it really belongs in the thread on Economy Radiator Company)

All it really states is that they are a very successful firm and attempts to denigrate some posters on this particular section of MSE; and praises you in a rather obseqious manner;)

He hasn't given even attempted to challenge any technical fact several of us have expressed. Martin Lewis I suspect would have deleted this thread(and others) if the facts we state couldn't be supported.

A couple of points from his missive:

Why are storage heaters only made in Europe yet the Europeans never used them ?

Why do so many people fall for the biggest scam of them all Economy 7 ?

This is a basic failure of Junior school mathematics !

Here he is is absolutely incorrect. Economy 7 for many people is a far better proposition than even the cheapest 24/7 'normal' tariff.

Not only can the majority of heating in a property can be supplied using cheap rate electricity using storage heating, the hot water is also on cheap rate - and all through summer when heating not required - and appliances can be used on a timer during the off-peak hours.

If the economy 7 tariff is chosen wisely the premium for the 17 hours daytime electricity is small.

There are obviously disadvantages to storage heating - especially the older models; and understandably they are not popular with many people, mainly that they leak heat which is not much good if you are out at work all day.

This quote really sums up the approach of these firms.

Actually the Rointe product is very good --- just ugly and expensive but quality of heat and running costs are superb.

Quality of heat? I wonder how that differs from any other electrically heated radiator?

However the really issue which illustrates the Modus operandi of these firms is to 'major' on low running costs.

Without question a Rointe or Economy Radiator company radiator produces no more heat, for the same running cost, than any other electrical heater - from a £10 fan heater, £30 oil filled radiator upwards. That is the bottom line. If it were not so wouldn't he be challenging that statement?

If these hyped-up systems produced more heat, then surely the Energy Saving Trust(EST) or WHICH would endorse them and indeed the Government would be imploring us to buy these heaters with 'superb running costs.' In fact any member of the public can contact the EST for advice and WHICH members likewise.

Lastly, anyone can claim to have any qualification on this type of forum, and a number of us claim to be technically qualified(a Chartered Electrical Engineer in my case). However as some poster pointed out none of the above technical information would be above a GCE level physics student.

lucylocket22

I was thinking of buying economy radiators until I researched them. I have asked Economy Radiators if I can talk to some of their customers and they won't let me quoting confidentiality etc so I then asked if they could give my number to their c ustomers and ask if they would ring me and they still don't agree to that. So I feel uncomfortable about purchasing these radiators. When I was spending £5000 on fitted wardrobes for my house the company was thrilled to get their customers to ring me and go and have a look, with the customers' agreements of course so I didn't think that Economy Radiators would mind doing the same. I think Cardew seems to speak a lot of sense. I do think that when you get people on forums really singing the praises of a particular product it is so hard to know whether that person owns the company or not. I think I will stick to getting storage heaters but I don't know which ones to get.

dickllewellyn

For storage heaters, dimplex, creda, and heatstore are the main players, albeit all made by the same company. If you opt for one with a built in convector heater, you could have that set on a low thermostat to avoid freezing etc and to provide instant heat if required, and if you're using it for longer periods the storage heater can be used on the off peak.

You may find if the property is rarely used that storage heating doesn't work for you as it needs to be set to run overnight etc. dimplex do some smart looking panel heaters which would give a more instant heat, but can also have a central programer/thermostat so you could leave them on a low setting when the place is not in use. We fitted their Gerona glass front heaters in an old barn conversion used rarely as a studio, and they were just the job. Most of the more reputable companies will be able to give advice, and if you tell the, room sizes and insulation levels, they will be able to tell you what size heaters to buy.

Cardew

dickllewellyn wrote: »

For storage heaters, dimplex, creda, and heatstore are the main players, albeit all made by the same company. If you opt for one with a built in convector heater, you could have that set on a low thermostat to avoid freezing etc and to provide instant heat if required, and if you're using it for longer periods the storage heater can be used on the off peak.

You may find if the property is rarely used that storage heating doesn't work for you as it needs to be set to run overnight etc. dimplex do some smart looking panel heaters which would give a more instant heat, but can also have a central programer/thermostat so you could leave them on a low setting when the place is not in use. We fitted their Gerona glass front heaters in an old barn conversion used rarely as a studio, and they were just the job. Most of the more reputable companies will be able to give advice, and if you tell the, room sizes and insulation levels, they will be able to tell you what size heaters to buy.

Good advice.

Just a point for readers on size of radiator. With electrical heaters having them larger than required will not increase running costs. For example if a room requires, say, a constant 1.5kW to keep it at a set temperature, then a 3kW heater will cost the same in running costs because it will only operate for 50% of the time.

In fact the 3kW heater has the advantage that the room will warm up quicker. However as with any electrical heating it is important to ensure that the property electrics - wiring and Consumer unit(fuses) - are adequate for a considerable electrical load.

grahamc2003

I too found the 'economy radiator' (sic) person's reply a little strange. The implications that there is a 'dirty tricks' campaign on here against his/her company is actually quite insulting, if not libelous. Maybe Dimplex may like to look at the reply too, with accusations made against them. I have no relationship with Dimplex or anyone else. I do have some Dimplex storage heaters though, which work well and as good as can be expected from storage heaters. I have worked for National Grid at the highest engineering positions, sitting on various expert groups set up to solve the most complex issues within the industry. I won't bother with my qualifications, except to say they are the highest technical qualifications possible, from prestigious universities.

Why do so many people fall for the biggest scam of them all Economy 7 ?

This is a basic failure of Junior school mathematics !

Yes, and the failure is yours. Your heaters run on full priced electricity, E7 rates are often a half or one third of that. The same amount of heating using your gel filled, rare earth metalled basic convector heaters costs 2 or 3 times the price of the same heat from a storage heater. If your heaters cost less than 2 or 3 times the cost, then they are simply not providing the same amount of heat, and the average room temperatures will be less.

That fact not only applies to your heaters, but to all electric heaters of whatever type - oil filled, ceramic, halogen, finned, unfinned, gel filled or jelly filled, the only exception being heat pumps which are a diffecnt technology (and your convector heaters aren't heat pumps, before you get the idea to put that in your advertising).

As to the profits of your company - I have no idea of those (don't you know?). As to councils queueing up for your heaters - well you imply they are 'green', and produce heat more 'efficiently' than other heaters, so I expect that's all councils have to read to order a load (as I expect you realise too). The fact that each council ordering your product probably employs no suitably qualified engineers to look into your claims is a travesty in itself, and forcing electrical heating at daytime rates on council tenants is, to my mind, obscene. That applies to any electrical heating at full rates, not just your heaters.

Your utube video states the costs are 1p per hour per room to maintain 22C in the daytime, and 18c at night, on average. So you imply - or at least some people would assume -from that that someone in a 2 bed flat, with 3 rooms heated cost 72p per day to heat. Is that what you meant to imply. Also, you make the very elementary mistake of confusing kW and kWh in your video - strange for a person selling heating appliances. I assume you are the retired accountant referenced in the video, which woulkd explain why you seem to know nothing of heating requirements or costs.

Perhaps people should remember your attempted get-out of all the nonsense on your website, being

“All statements made are our “own opinion” based on the real life and published running costs of four test rooms which we measured on our own premises”.

and that the statements are the opiniuon of an accountant, not anyone trained in energy or thermodynamics or testing and measuring methods.

In my opinion, your website misleads, whether by accident or design. Mostly, the statements on it mean nothing at all, eg,

Using the thermodynamic principal of the European radiator market to provide the "Best Value for Money" product on the market in the UK.

Anyone buying your product will have a heating system almost certainly more expensive, and potentially 2 or 3 times more expensive, than modern stoage heaters used correctly, and it's almost impossible to visualise how they could have cheaper running costs than correctly installed gas central heating, when gas is about 1/3rd of the price per unit of heat than that from any full priced electric heater, including yours.